MechWarrior: Living Legends

Guys, i've only known 3ds max for about 5 days now and my modeling skills are weak at best for the moment, but i'm infinitely impressed with your modeling skills. I still need to learn UVW Mapping etc as well as bone structure and rigging (which should be pie for me).

I'm pretty ok with the low poly model renders, just need to get more experience shaping things up, but as far as all the detail on your model's go... how do you guys do it? How do you keep the patience? How long does it take you to complete those kinds of models? Do you have any tips or tricks for a wanna-be?

I'm hoping to develop my own mech style mmo with an amount of customization so huge people will think it's stupid. I won't let get confusing though, i'll have it streamlined and everything but... I can do the stats and balancing thing, i can do the coding and databasing thing, server thing, but the modeling... My stuff looks like a 5 year old made it with crayons compared to yours. (almost literally)

What could i do or learn to get to your level in terms of quality??

I've just kept doing models and found someone who gives good constructive criticism.  I've always had a nack for CAD kind of stuff, so it's a little more natural for me.  I listen to music alot of times when I model, I usually do it from anywhere between 1-6 hours at a time.  It takes me roughly a month or so to finish a highpoly (usually 50k+ polys).  But just find an easy mech and steadily challenge yourself a little more.  When doing details just think of what kinds of systems it would need to actually work. 

But pretty much just practice, start on the easy stuff, and get good feedback from people who aren't afraid to say, "hey you should do this."

Practice and stay around the kind of people who are into the same kind of thing.

Making game models actually becomes pretty quick when you keep at it. If I'm not done with a high-poly in three days, I'm distracted.

And yeah, I'm usually distracted. :-[

practice practice practice and a litle more practice, and of course a good amount of self dicipline is needed to... and as Cujo points out, being in the right mood or atleast setting your self in that mood is a big help, and I think alot of artists (regardless of the field) listens to their kind of music, and eventually, speaking from my own friends of the classical art school, a good glass of vine or a smoke helps setting the mood to! not that I would personally either lead you in that direction, nor tend to do so, that it dulls the mind and thats definitely not good when working in 3Ds. But ok when painting on canvas!

I'm not so much in trouble with the general shape-shifting, but how is the meticulous detail attended to?? The clan puma render is incredible.
I suppose the meat of it is just close attention to detail and where you're running your insets and bevels and so on then... but i guess what i don't know yet, is after you get the lowpoly side of things done, how do you add that little detail? Like how do you get those small lines, small indentations etc without using boolean?

One of my better models:
(http://a456.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/35/l_6add927edb9b28f2ccba67d1c091686f.jpg)

One of my more accurate models:
(http://a141.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/31/l_4ef574f5023e45afa86538a2b6fdd7c4.jpg)

I honestly need to do a rough model, go back to it the next day and make sure scaling is right, and then add the small detail the day after. That sound about right?

Yeah, same way as with traditional art, you need your proportions right to begin with. Clan mechs like those ones often have a front-facing orthographic view to work off; most applications can make an image plane for you that will help greatly in getting scale right.

Boolean operations aren't reliable in many applications at all, from what I've found, except when dealing with NURB shapes. I usually have to feign them using cutting tools, which takes a little more work but gets much cleaner results. Basically, I'd set a whole lot of missile tubes / prisms in place, then cut them along the side view using the plane of the missile rack, delete the protruding parts of the prisms, delete the plane, select all the edges and fill in the hole.

Where it gets really tricky is when you're trying to cut holes in a surface that isn't flat. Sometimes I'll just bite the bullet and use booleans anyway, then clean up the mess afterwards. This is one place where I didn't have much choice but to use booleans.

(http://www.povterminal.net/gallery/scan/turk-nose.jpg)

Wouldn't you be able to just pull the vertices out to have a square looking shape and just extrude the thing backwards and then go with the holes? Or does that cause overlapping/glitching because of the edges? I figure you could probably just do that action (i forget atm) that allows you to add vertex points, make a circle of them and just extrude/bevel them backwards. You could always use the optimize modifier and there's some option in there aside from reducing total poly count that gets rid of the glitches that boolean causes.

Using boolean creates like 6 lines that connect to some random vertex and optimizing with the modifier gets rid of them for me. So not too bad i suppose if you do have to use it... The holes i've got in my models are all from boolean and they don't look like there's any issues from the render.

I learned from past posts that you guys do a lot of work at the vertex level and it seems like the most precise way to go. What about the finite details? Like the small armor panels and air filters and stuff like that? How do you get that attached to your mech parts? Do you create them first and then slap them on? Or do you use an inset/bevel and just carve it out? I'm fine with the creative part of the detailing, i'm just lost as to the best technique to apply them with.

Depends on the artist. I usually build them into surfaces as I go. Some detail you can add as a texture.

Any description as to how, in general? Logically, i'm stumped. All i figure is that you can make a plane, shape shift it to desired dimensions and then attach it but that doesn't seem too optimal.

Would it be possible to mail me a 3DS Max file so i can look at the mesh?

Extrusion/bevel, or placing points on the surface (Maya and 3DS are better at the latter than Blender, which I used for that Turkina).

Unfortunately I only have a trial version of 3DS and it's expired, so I can't help you much there.

So what do you do with the detailling? Inset first, create your points, and then screw with it till you get what you want basically?

Yeah, that's about right. I used to be fairly meticulous about keeping everything on grid measurements, but these days I just keep the edges clean and the angles straight and she'll be right.

I'm an adamant fan of using Quads (4-sided polys) and I only use Tri's as a last resort.
Most of the detailing can be done by inserting edge loops where you want definition, then extruding that definition inward to create whatever you want. It just takes a bit of foresight for loop placement, but if you add loops and use simple extrusions you can get practically any shape imaginable down to the smallest detail. If it's a simple thing like a vent, I'd extrude the vent hole in and create a 3-face poly fanned out to 45degrees and place them in the vent. If it's panels and plates, you can use extrusions to define your detail and extrude inward, then bevel the edges to create contour.

In summary, well-placed edge-loops and extrusions = w1n.

Mind explaining or screenshotting edge loops? I can do the vertex manual precision method, but I haven't even a foggy idea what you mean by edge loops. All i know is that hitting loop will select the edge all the way around an object. I'll probably have something to show for what i've figured out by tuesday or thursday.

Ok, I'm at work, but I took a few minutes to screenshot an example of simple edge-loops and extrusions.

You have the idea of edge loops down. It's pretty self explanitory. A loop of edges connected together from one end to the other in a nice, even flow.

The first screenie is a basic cube.

Second screenie I add 2 edge loop and scaled them to an arbitrarily comfortable position.

Third screenie I add some definition by extruding the faces inward.

4th screenie I started adding details by adding more edge loops randomly while extruding and scaling them as well.

Fifth screenie is just more extrusions within the edge loops I've already created. I also created a cube and deleted 3 faces fanned them out a bit to take up less space, then duplicated that cube to fill one hole, grouped the duplication and copied them to the other holes.

Poof, 5 minute ventilation shaft thingymabob.
Hope that helps at all, I know it's kinda hackjob but I'm on my break ;)

Edit: Third pic was messed up, so I reuploaded another. Third example at bottom. Also some overlapping interface in most pics except #1 bekuz I rush'd and pasted into Paint. lulz.

That's a great explanation, but the only thing i can't figure out is with the last screenie. I can kinda wing the bottom center extrusions, but the vent rows confuse me. How did you get them all straight like that? The only thing i can think of is to have the original box with alot of edge loops. Maybe it's different with 3DS Max but the way i figure, you'd have just a few edges on the object, do your initial stuff, then go back to the base object's properties and just throw in more edge loops to create the filter sheets. Sounds about right?

You drag/move vertices.

Sounds simple enough... i'll have to check it out for myself once i get home. Just FYI: If you guys want to emulate shattered glass without it breaking, just add vertices onto a poly face a few times and it looks like someone took a bat to a windsheild poly face.

Oh, would it also be simple enough to just use inset a bunch of times, connect all the edges across and delete the vertical ones? Or will that glitch up? Oarg :( The struggle of noobies.  :'(

The vents themselves?
It was 1 separate cube, duplicated quite a few times. Deleted 3 of 6 polys to reduce polycount.

cool then. i'll do some detail work on my grendel model tomorrow and we'll see if i get some nice results or not. :] the force is in a recession these days >_>

korsen, post you grendel when it reaches a satisfactual state...  ::)

Defender, thumbs up on your tiny-tutor and guidance! They are most usefull!

All of us here started somewhere and I guarantee that all of us had a mentor here and there to help us along.

Anytime you guys have questions about tech modeling or anything I'm sure we can give you some answers here and if we don't have them i'm sure we can get the answers for you.

That's not to say post questions like..."how do i make a box?" or "help me be l33t at modelz!" but real question we will do our best to help out.

locking thread Crim... I´ll return!

I could ask a question to those who habitually use 3DS Max? I noticed that all models mech that you made based on a plan colorless (where you can see the shadows produced by the models) with no horizon, I wondered how it was possible to set it in 3DS Max ... I tried in some option rendering but have not found anything. :-\

It's just a basic studio setup, there's a bunch of tutorials around for it.

As Whiplash said its a built in basic light source in 3DsMax, no "real" shadow or light bounces can be accomplished by that alone.

... a few basic text on the subject of setting up light sources, etc. ...
http://www.3dxtra.cygad.net/search/1.htm?sort=score&term=light&ext=lk_tut
http://www.expertrating.com/courseware/3DCourse/3D-Lights-1.asp
http://www.cgtutorials.com/c14/Lighting/newest/
http://www.cgarena.com/freestuff/tutorials/tutorials.html
http://www.3dmax-pack.com/category/Lighting/

But above all, play with 3Ds and its diferent ways of creating both lights and atmospherics is the best way to obtain a solid understanding for the ware and it´s possibilities. And yes you might sometimes stare blank at the screen for several hours not understanding a thing, but it´ll come eventually.

Thank you boys, just find a moment of time I study these links ... unfortunately this prevent me from learning how to fund the program.

NP mate!
Also try to play with setting a SkyLight and render in Atmospheric settings instead, but it tends to create artifacts if it is adjusted too low, and a longer rendering time during tests, but it gives a more appealing finish!

what do you mean by "fund the program" is it "run the program", then I´ll have to say that using any 3D ware, or other for that matter, takes time to master, and a tiny dedication from you must be appleid, else you´ll start from (nearly) the same spot each time you use the ware! And only slowly feel a progress! This is actually important for you, that its your own self-dicipline that determins how far you can get/reach with a given software, especially without a tutor supporting you.

[Edit: Look at the masters of MWLL´s own finds for resources on modeling tutorials too here (http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/forum/index.php/topic,403.0.html) for starting using 3Ds Max]

If you're looking for something free, try finding a copy of GMax. It's essentially 3DSMax but cut down for mod development use.. however it is no longer supported by Discreet and Turbosquid has taken up the reigns of support and hosting..

Also, there's Softimage's free XSI Mod program which Crysis has support for and is pretty full featured.. Also has about the same difficulty of learning..

Here is a site that has been a massive help to me when I wanted to start modeling. Most of the tutorials are free and easy to follow.
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php (http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php)

I've been working in 3dsmax to create some temporary props like a mechlab and union dropship for my map, how exactly do you guys tell what scale to have your object in max so that it is the correct size in editor?

I don't think you need to do that really.  Just use solids for now as temporary base buildings and replace them with the MWLL once we get a hands on version 1.0 (or the beta if there is one :D )

We use reference objects included with the sdk.

Not always... remember the cow pattie sized castle?

Set your units up in meters.

Haw. (http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1236/awesomesmallcy8.png)

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****This is from one of the many tutorials Kamikaze has made up for the team all credit for this belong to him*****
1) Open a .Max scene with your object inside

2) Along the top menu bar, find "Customize" - Click it and then click "Unit Setup"

3) In Unit Setup, change your "Display Unit Scale" to Metric "Meters" (This will now show your grid and Units in meters when creating primitives)

4) Still in "Unit Setup", click "System Unit Setup". From here change your "System Unit Scale" to "1 Unit = 1.0 Centimeters"

5) Ok everything to go back into your 3DS Scene. At the top menu again, Click "Customize" and then "Grid and Snap Settings"

6) From here you "SHOULD" change your "Grid Spacing" to 1.0m. This will change your grids so that your grid boxes are 1meter X 1meter. This makes it really easy to scale Objects to the Meter height.

7) Lastly, rescale your object to the height you want and then use the CryEngine 2 Exporter to bring your Mesh into Sandbox....

Now I hope I don't get shot for giving away one of the secrets of MWLL.....lol ;D ;D ;D

Nah, we don't shoot leakers, we keel haul them, which is serious since we use dropships...

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Damn good thing I haven't finished my work on the Saturn 5 Booster Rocket Engines on the Dropship then!

KEEP MESH CLEAN!! that is one of the most important rule that even the best modellers dont do. 

Mesh clean up consists of making sure all ur edge loops flow nicely EXAMPLE: ___ yes __/ no.

Also make sure u delete unneccessary faces/polys like ones inside the model that u will never see.

keep the geometry consistent dont use quads in one part and tris in another do one or the other.

Delete stray vertices, stray verts r vertices with no edges intersecting, they cause alot of problems.

And one more thing try not to model something and then just combine it to another model, for example if u model a mech arm and u want to have some stuff popping out for detailing it, just extrude faces from the mesh of the arm DONT model the details on another model then combine it to the arm. it makes the mesh look bad and may cause texturing, rigging or animating problems.

so ya just think about the pipline in the production. Just b/c u model something and u know it in and out doesnt mean the next person that has to do work on it does, like the texture artist, the rigger, and the animator. That's why it is important that mesh be kept clean. Hope u learnt something. ;D