MechWarrior: Living Legends

************************************So everyone is aware actual voting on this is looong over.  We are going with a hybrid design.  Feel free to continue discussing the pros and cons of either design however.    -Death_Grin         ***********************************************


Ok so here's the thing... All the Devs here agree that we should drop the Hellbringer (Loki) and replace it with the Mad Dog (Vulture). The problem is we've been having a debate about which cosmetic model to work off as a base model. So we've decided to put it up to an open vote to the community. I'll explain each each model and show picture examples of each...

The Classic BattleTech (CBT) version is a staple look for the Mad Dog. Introduced in the 3050 editions of CBT, the Mad Dog has been a support Mech for the Clans (especially Jade Falcon). It can be recognized by its narrow torso that mounts LRM 15s on each side of the torso and also equipped with a Large Pulse Laser and Medium Laser on each arm (quad lasers). Commonly seen in MechWarrior 2 & 3, as well as Mech Commander 1 & 2, as well seen in Classic BattleTech table top.

(http://www.mektek.net/forums/gallery/1/gallery_6935_1_102335.jpg)

(http://www.heavygauss.com/HEAVY/vulture10.jpg)

(http://www.classicbattletech.com/images/gallery/Classic_BattleTech_Technical_Readout_3050_Upgrade_MadDog@full.jpg)

The Microsoft Version (or by CBT Fluff terms: "Inner Sphere redesign") also known as "The True Vulture" is a remodel of the Mad Dog. The main restructuring was done to make the Vulture look like it has more armor and bulk. Its design hold 2 LRM 20s on either torso and 2 Large Pulse lasers on either arm (but they look more like ammo based guns more than lasers). As well it has two Medium Pulse Lasers on the front nose turret. This model is seen in MechWarrior 4.

(http://www.anthonyonline.net/stuff/cg/vulture02.jpg)

(http://www.geocities.jp/stick_kit/jpg/mech003.jpg)

(http://img.verycd.com/gallery/1126703754/gallery_317931_2740_24471.jpg)



If you still can't decide, here is a ROUGH side by side view of both types of models.

(http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/kamikaze/vultures.JPG)


Here is the V-ray Renders of both as per the Newsletter.

CBT Vulture
(http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/images/newsl_img/august_newsletter/cbtvulture.jpg)


MW4 Vulture
(http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/images/newsl_img/august_newsletter/mw4vulture.jpg)


So now its up to you. Which model would you rather see be made for MechWarrior: Living Legends? Cast your vote!

I vote for the CBT version because its more known to the hardcore fans and a staple Mech of BattleTech. The Microsoft version is just a remake of a model that didn't need to be changed. Plus I'm also more partial to the quad laser arms.

However, I would propose a compromise of keeping the CBT base of the model, but modifying the torso to be 20% wider to hold LRM 20s instead of 15s, as well bulk it up with some armor plating that is seen in the Microsoft version.

I personally like the MW4 version, simply because it looks less fragile.
The compromise you suggested sounds like the best solution though.

I must go with the CBT version.  Its very recognizable as a vulture and almost all battletech /mechwarrior fans know that to to be a vulture.  The microsoft revision makes it look less like the support mech that it is and more like a front line mech, which it isn't.  As cool as the microsoft version looks I have to pass on that one for the pure recognition factor.

I vote MW4 version...why because it looks more like a heavy mech. the other one is far more flimsy looking in addition to being more retro looking than the mw4 type one. In addition the legs and feet are far more interesting on the MW4 version and finally the turret on the nose makes all the difference in the world.

The main guns are my biggest reason though they look far more intimidating and menacing looking than simple tubes.

I prefer the Microsoft version, although the combination suggestion is acceptable as well. I like LRM 20's for the additional firepower over the 15's and the nose turret as well. The legs, if you havent noticed, on the Microsoft version are actually very sinilar to the BT version. They both have the spur like extension on the back of the leg. Your model has a "non spured" joint at that location. However, I actually like that leg better. It appears more solid than the spur.

tough choice I prefer the MW4 mech for the look of it, however if it is a support class mech I think it needs that quick agile look of the original... Im not crazy about the look of the lasers on the original though. perhaps if they where closer together or had some sort of connector between them.

heres what I propose, take the legs and the torso of the classic and use the armature (read arms not guns) and missile pods from the MW4 vulture. Keeping the actual lasers themselves... (maybe with previous amendment^).

That way A it looks a little more modern and B it still has that recognition factor.

The CBT or original one but the guns need to be longer and a little bit more fatter. In the comparison models they look to skinny and skimpy..

I could live with this....can't we all just get along? :D

Ditto  ;)

cbt version all the way, i find it much more aesthetically pleasing than the mw4 version

Yellow one.

This guy deserves a raise.

ROFL

Original/CBT Mad Dog

Pros : Recognizable and popular with CBT fans.
Cons: Looks rather retro (design-wise) and kinda spindly-looking. doesn't really convey the image of a heavy Mech.

MW4 Mad Dog/Vulture

Pros : Looks buff enough to pull off being called a heavy Mech.
Cons: Not instantly recognizable as the Vulture/Mad Dog. Most die-hard CBT fans probably hate it.

my two cents (worth far less in American dollars): the whole idea behind MWLL the way i see it is that we're making something that's ours. we've changed the concept of the battles, we're going deeper than previous BT/MW games and we're coming up with stuff even the TROs didn't have. it just makes sense that we revamp some Mech designs as well. so, my problem with the CBT Mad Dog is that the design just doesn't say heavy. hell, the MW4 Chimaera looks a lot more buff than that. so either the MW4 or we come up with something new.

LOL @ the two cents. I agree with this.

The votes appear to say otherwise... ;)

I know its cause Kamikaze its paying everyone off to spite me!!!!! Traitorous bastards.

LOL! It's cause I out e-rank you. I R EmPoRawR!!

Alright, on a serious note though.... I was talking to Kelembai about what we could do with the Vulture and he sent me a really good image to go off of. It's a picture of a DA Vulture that we could model around. It has alot of the elements we want to keep in it but I think I'm going to edit a few things....

(http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/kamikaze/Vulture_Concept_DA.jpg)

Alright, this image has the Legs that alot of people like from the MW4 version and the nose turret as well. The main thing I want to see changed from this picture is the the squat torso. From the reference pic it looks like it got flattened and needs to be pulled back up. Just like the old Vulture.

(http://www.classicbattletech.com/images/gallery/Classic_BattleTech_Technical_Readout_3050_Upgrade_MadDog@full.jpg)

I am also still a fan of the quad lasers, but talking one on one with alot of people they would prefer single barreled arms. But also considering that we can use the modular weapon upgrade we might as well model both.

How does this idea sound to everyone?

sounds awesome!

Excellent. Let's do it that way.

sounds good to me as well.

Kami,

I know I am just a Noob here, but how does your proposed model change effect the poly budget?

Not much really since we're shooting for a 5-10k limit on the Mechs and the High poly model can be as high as we want - the more detail the better really. Then from the high poly we crunch it down to match most of the geometry from the high so that the details will transfer over nicely. It's all within our power to model the low poly and still have it look good.

So in reading through the forums, I have seen two different pipeline approaches:

1. Create low detail model, then apply normal maps and textures

2. Create high detail model, then "crunch" it down to a low detail and apply normal and texture maps.

Which is used when?

Thanks,

Aidan  :)

p.s. do you all have a TS server and would I be allowed to have an account on it? Thanks again.

It really depends on the Artist's style and level of skill they have in modeling. If they only know the basics in Box modeling or spline or poly modeling, then it suggested to go from low to high. That way you keep the same shape of lowpoly as you form your details around that and your normal maps "should" come out near perfect. But starting from a highpoly model, you may be adding in detail you didn't expect to see or that should be seen on the lowpoly. This way of doing it is making like a complete model first and then making a lower end version of it to hold most of the bigger details but the normal map will still pic up the smaller details and apply those as a texture at the appropriate locations on the lowpoly.

Going from High to Low gives the artist alot more freedom with the model, however the artist must be mindful of all of his/her details on the model and adjust the low poly accordingly. I used to use the Low to high poly, but now am going the other way since I've learned alot more.

I've also sent you a PM containing our TS info.

I do not think the chunkier models look menacing.  Seems to me like most clan mech models were lean compared to IS mechs.  This makes the clan mechs look faster and more agile (which they are). 

It is almost like the less bulky models are more of a testament to clan tech because they pack more of a punch while appearing smaller. 

Plus the thin models look alien/exotic compared to classic IS stuff like the urbanmech / fafnir / mauler.  And there are also mechs like the marauder which show the transision from bulky to thinner. 

Anyways to summarise I really like the thin classic vulture because it bucks the bigger = better trend. 

Also (lol) I think the thinner vulture will look better with all the polys we can use, it seems like maybe they redesigned the vulture because they did not have the polys to spend on two nicely rounded barrels per arm.  Or maybe not, I do not know much about modeling :p

and finally pleeeeeeeeeeeese can we have the 2xgauss vulture variant? :D

beej,

I agree with your thinking. The Clans had to do more with less, after the Exodus. So better technology through efficiency was a by product of their struggle and eventual genetically engineered race.

Oh yea!!!! The 2 Guass rifle Mad Dog is a kick ass Mech. The Mad Dog is not just missiles you know!

 :)

I dunno... I don't really like the idea of putting x2 gauss rifles on a heavy class mech. But you guys do a valid point, the x2 Gauss rifle is a valid TRO from CBT. So you may have to wait for a surprise when it comes time to upgrade you mech variant in game ;)

funny, im right in the middle of a vulture build right now

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c303/elninjo69/Aug13589.jpg)

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c303/elninjo69/Aug13586.jpg)

CBT concept art

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/723/scan0081uw2.gif)

(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1989/scan0080bp7.gif)

one thing worth keeping in mind, this chassis shares its legs with the madcat. identical set
as does the daishi/masakari and loki/thor chassis's

i dont think that it's justified to say that the mw4 vulture should be used just because the vulture is a heavy mech, and thus it has to look bulky in order to reflect its weight class. lets not forget that the vulture is on the "light" end of the heavy spectrum, weighing in at only 60t, and that it was designed for fire support, not the head on combat that we see in mw4.

also, i personally feel that using design ideas from mw4, or mwda further perpetuates the travesty of those games (more so mwda than mw4), because by adopting their designs you will be paying homage to either, the arcady nature of mw4 that many long time fans despised, or the rather nonsensical/illogical inconsistencies surrounding the story and creation of mwda

lastly, it would just look out of place having mw4 designs next to cbt designs

in truth i'd like it if we followed neither design. i'd much prefer it if we could come up with our own take on the design based on any BT/MW material as reference. my only problem with the CBT Mad Dog/Vulture is it doesn't look heavy enough (for me that is, i realize it's not a popular view but hey, to each his own), so i voted for the MW4 design because it looked buff.

i'd like to vote for a third option but it wasn't there: design our own.

just another two cents from me... ;D

Microsoft version, it looks sweeter.

I'm starting to like this guy :D Good taste and good vote...go MW4 version!

I like a combo models but IF I had to pick one or the other I'd go for the cbt version.

Plus nose turret, and plus some bulk, though not much change in shape, would be far better, methinks.

I've voted for the MW4 Vulture model. Couple of reasons for it.

- The MW4 model, in my opinion is of a far higher quality. The design is much more solid and has a purpose built quality to it, where as the original model looks like it was designed with aesthetics in mind.
- The broader build, extra armour and armament give it a much deadlier look, again adding to the purpose built feel.
- It looks far more realistic, military equipment is rarely curved such as the legs on the CBT Vulture model, mostly due to difficulty in manufacturing such pieces. The solid panels on the MW4 model would be easier to replace and repair as well as manufacture and bolt into place (setting aside the fact that obviously BattleTech is entirely fantastical).

Yes yes and yes.

Don't worry boys we're gonna win this one!!
Great point on the overall militaristic (is that even a word?) look of the MW4 one. Solid panels and and less "shapely" body make it look more believable imo.

No! Never! Go CBT! If you're a true CBT Fan you'll vote for the right one.

Who wants a Mech that has box guns that have pee-shooter holes? Go with the real quad laser arms!

Also the legs are a staple as they match the Madcat | Timber Wolf - Just like the Thor legs are inter-changeable with the Loki.

Bottom line, stay true to what CBT originally intended the Vulture to be, not this over bulked boxed out M$ made version.

The original BattleTech version all the way!   8)  It's a classic mech and it should look the way it's supposed to in MWLL.  :)

I love CBT, play it regularly but I have to say the MW4 M$ mech just looks so much more intimidating and a much stouter fighter.  I could have swore at some point someone had told me that the mech we see in the intro movie isn't in fact a MadDog/Vulture but something else entirely, but I don't have any evidence to suppor this, all my BT books say ther was a maddog/vulture and thats about it.  BTW I have all the technical readouts if anyone ever needs a scan of something just PM me.  I'm not on any of the chats because it conflicts with my schedule.

The legs for the MW4 Vulture could still be inter-changed with the Mad Cat. It's not like they are drastically different just a different take on them. Although I would like the see the Knee Joint extensions that are on the back of the CBT version incorporated into the MW4 version. That's just a preference though, rather than a necessity. Same with the Muzzle size, I agree that it's too small and should be made wider.

Another pro point for the MW4 version, because it's not using curved sections it would less demanding on GPUs when it comes to processing.

As a true fan(ataic) of CBT, I hope that the One And Only Mad Dog will win this poll. Yet, whatever you do, PLEEEAASSSEEE!!!! Do NOT use DarkAge-Models! PLEEEAASSEEE!!!
Every Microsoft-Perversion of a BattleMech is better than DarkAge stuff (imo)

I agree with a mix, legs like the M$ one, Arms like the CBT one, remove the little middle laser (looks weird) but add a large bulk of armor and the same basic details of the M$ one, and remove the roundish build, (the M$ one looks less smooth, more like a real Mech would AND isn't as round)

I'm More partial to the original,not just because it's the original,but because it seems more like I guess it should be.I do have to say I do like the second version as well.

PS-Microsoft ditched that MW4 version in Mechassault 1-2 (i dare say those names) they must have had this big long talk like us when they did that. ;)

EDIT-here is a tiny picture from MA2-(http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/2F5BA068-7F2C-4BEA-9FC2-484C4F3B7615/0/ilmmechassault2lonewolfas0439.jpg]http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/2F5BA068-7F2C-4BEA-9FC2-484C4F3B7615/0/ilmmechassault2lonewolfas0439.jpg)

I like the CBT version.

 8)

Although I voted for the CBT version I would not mind seeing a hybrid between the two different versions. Maybe something with the MW4 frame, ditch the arms in favour of the CBT ones and get rid of the pee shooters on the MW4 model.

I vote for the CBT vulture as I would vote for any CBT design over any MW4 designs. I am an old school battletech fan that has read every novel so it is hard to accept the new/redesigned models that microsoft incorporated into mw4.  MW3, imo, was a much better representation of what the mechs should look like then mw4 was.

CBT all the way!!!

Yeah i'm partial to a mix (cause i think i've lost this vote :( )

Common compromise!!

I guess my pay offs work. LOLz!  :D

Yeah, I'm always up for a compromise :).

boo yah, thats what i wanna hear  ;)

the more cbt vulture support the better :P

(runs from everyone who disagrees :S )

I'm partial to the MW4 version.  I like its bulky, menacing look.  However, one thing that might be tried is keeping the external armor around its current arm-mounted pulse lasers and replacing the guns themselves with the quad retro guns, stacked one on top of the other inside the armor plating.

Also, as a support unit the Vulture usually carries a lot of extra missiles and the retro model just doesn't look like it could fit all that many reloads.

hmm... looks like the CBT Vulture is gonna win  ;D. sometimes i hate democracy (i'm kidding! i'm kidding!!)

while we're on that, do we get to call Clan Mechs by their Clan names?

Personally I prefer the Mw4 direction to the mech artwork compared to everything that came before it.  Just compare TRO artwork of a Hunchback to the Mw4 version.  The Mw4 version is much more superior.  They look heavier, more utilitarian, more martial.  I also like how it puts distance between Robotech art and influence on the designs.

Plus a lot of TRO artwork looks terrible.  Like the Black Knight.  A lot of Catapult art with the ridiculous legs which are way too straight.  Mechs which obviously would topple over from a silly center of gravity.  Mechs parts which are much too spindly.  It goes on and on.

No matter what direction this mod takes with the original artwork I would ask that you take the same direction with all of the mechs so that they share some sort of common artistic element(s).  It just makes more sense that way.  Or at they very least, incorporate common design elements between mechs which are manufactured by the some corporations.

I agree with Ikavadas and Tallen. skinny chicken legs, too high center of gravity, and lack of armor on a war machine does not make sense. What good is a mech that could be toppled by a RPG to an obviously frail leg joint? It would negate to purpose of using mechs at all if they were vulnerable to a couple of foot soldiers.

I already voted for the MW4 version, but I see no reason I shouldnt be allowed to vote, say another 200 times or so...............lol JK

haha i would vote 200 times for it too....its a damn close vote...so its looks like we will be making a compromise ;)

I agree with all of those points. How ever, the CBT fluff says that the Clans had to do more with less. The Vulture (even though is classified as a Heavy chassis) has a very light amount of armor to put the rest of it's tonnage into carrying the LRM20s which is why the CBT doesn't look heavy. It was also said earlier in this topic is the legs that are placed on the Vulture are interchangable with the MadCat legs. So if we're switching the legs on the Vulture, are we going to have to do the same with the Madcat??...

As far as naming conventions, we're using both. Which is why you normally see something like Vulture|Mad Dog on the website. Personally, I call them by their IS names cause I got use to the later generations of the Mechs and what they turned into. Still, feel free to call them by their Clan name if you wish. We'll still know what you're talking about :).

Hi there,

I have a couple suggestions of my own.
In my personal opinion, I like the bulkier, solid look of the Mech4 Vulture, but I also like the classic version out of nostalgic factor. I have my own aesthetic suggestion I would like to post. A quick render of an idea.

Some people like the old look, of the big, dual-barrel lasers, while others like the look of the smaller, more compact, solid design of the newer lasers. I was thinking about mixing the look a bit, to keep the old barrel design, but incorporate it into the new gun's frame.

Chekkit.

On second thought, as I ponder the meaning of life...why not just have them both, but give them access to loadouts for different situations. The "Old" version can be the support variant (LRM - ERL), while the "New" version can be the assault variant (SRM-ERM-MGUN) for example. Just thought I'd throw that in there. I'm not sure how many of what assets your incorporating and in what fashion but I thought it would be a cool idea.

I have been a fan for awhile, and I can not break away from the CBT version. One it just plain wrong to vote for the M$ ver. Following the btech/mech series for so long the maddog has always had that menacing look about it. With a sleek and stealthy look about it, with the fear of it cresting a ridge and raining hell down upon the enemy. I just don't get that feeling with the M$ ver. Actually the M$ ver. looks like an IS attempt at recreating the maddog to be honest. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah the M$ version looks bulkier, some say the CBT version doesn't look like a heavy, but you must realize it is 60T, thats a the smallest heavy mech there is for weight standards. It was not meant to be a up front taking it on with first class onmi's and IS battlemechs. It was meant to be fast, agile and equipped to deliver missiles to the front lines effectively. There are other variants yes, but the primary role of the maddog was support. Again just my 2 cents.

I say either combine the two or use both, for more mech variety. The MW4 version could be the IS version of the Mad Dog (aka Vulture).  Just a thought. 

ya, considering that neither side wants to give up which ever design they find more aesthetically pleasing, i say the player gets to choose which version to use via an options under the gameplay settings, or during installation, or as a console command, etc.

there's no better compromise than including both XD

I think the idea of having both sounds good aswell, and like I stated before the M$ ver. looks like an Inner Sphere attempt at recreating the battlemech. You'll devs. could go any direction with them, and like Infinite says, the best of both worlds.

I know seeing the 3d models you'll have done of both ver. they are great. The CBT is just what stands out to me, just the sleek looking, agile predator.

I always picture of a star of mechs: timberwolf in the lead, with two maddogs following flank, with a cauldron born for the knock out punch..

Could make the distinction official: Clan built "mad dog" vs I.S. built "vulture". Make the IS version slower and heavier (more base weight so less heat sinks would make it run hotter) but with more armour, but same weapon slots in each, and you have the gameplay to match the models...

well, if you start making those kind of changes, its no longer going to be a vulture, hell, you make it slower, more armored, and heavier, you might aswell call it a vulture 2. plus ppl would complain that "IS version" would be outclassed by the clan version despite the armor difference, especially if they have the same weapon loadout capabilites

also, where are people getting these ideas, that just because the maddog is a heavy mech, it has to look beefier and stronger to reflect its weight class, i no its been stated,  but im gonna say it again in case anybody forgot, its a FIRE SUPPORT mech, relying on long range engagement distances, so riding into the front lines with this baby is gonna chew you up real good... also, remember, mw4 isnt the best example of a simulator, mechs didnt really have to be visually representative of the theoretical roles that they had to fill

It's not a question of beefiness for the sake of beefiness, it's a question of beefiness for the sake of the mech looking like it can actually support it's weight, take a hit or two, having an obviously realistic center of balance, et cetera.  Most CBT TRO artwork lacks all of the above.  For a 60 ton war machine I simply expect the legs to look bigger than Nichole Ritchie's, simple as that.

i say you take another look at both the models, both have relatively similar dimentions, ie, the center torso is about the same thickness for both models, and the thigh section of the legs are just as flimsy looking on in both versions. only the arms have been buffed in the mw4 version (but ya, the hip/torso junction in the cbt vulture is effed up, unless of course the center of mass really is in that position, but its very unlikely.. but then again, the mw4 vulture has such a bizarre left/rigth torso design that it really makes me wonder how it fits all those missles, let alone how it reloads the launch tubes )

Look, I know exactly what both models look like.  All of the posts in the entire world will never budge my opinion, sorry.  I've spent my entire adult life around large war machines.  I'm a cavalry scout in RL.  If something lacks that "serious war" look I'll notice it.  The CBT Vulture lacks a "serious war" look.  It's obvious that someone with little to no knowledge of military vehicles drew it, as is the case with 99% of CBT TRO artwork.  The Mw4 look remedied a lot of that.  I prefer the Mw4 look.  I like how they gave every mech torso twist, dumped hands for the most part, and just had a very particular aesthetic feel.

I simply prefer that particular style over the CBT style.  You don't.  That's fine.  I'm not trying to change your opinion, just explain my own.

Hey guys,

Had to chirp in here, i know you both feel passionately about each asset and your passion and drive is inspiring and encouraging. I just wanted to say please don't personally attack eachothers opinions. There are just that opinions, discussion is okay but when it comes to down attacks on either the creativity or realism of an asset it's not worth it and just generally degardes this discussion.

You can imagine how discussions go with the DEV team now ;) but yeah please respect eachother we are all on the same team around here! :D

He's got a point though. If we're going to be true to the lore, then it's CBT all the way. But...

The lore, if we're going to put in on a table, shine bright lights in its eyes, and wave a scalpel menacingly in its direction, has more holes than a colander. I can go on for pages on how badly designed mechs are, and how incredibly flawed damn near all the science is- but that's not the point.

Clanners have better technology. They can make do with smaller and lighter mechs, and they don't need all the extra stuff. I vote for CBT.

Plus, with that interchangeable parts thing, do use the same models for certain clan mech leg/arm pairs.

You're going to have to do some work on the models anyway to make them make more sense, but the basic design, imho, should be the CBT version.

wow, and here i thought with the how the vote turned out this thread would be over...  ;)


i agree. i mean come on; 13 meter robots? not in the near future and definitely not with the science as explained in Battletech. but like the dude said; that's not the point.

the point is that this stuff is fun! so let's keep it that way.  :)

what i see here is a matter of aesthetics. some like the CBT Mad Dog, some like the MW4 Vulture. i myself prefer the latter and even once proposed an idea to compromise (hell, in some cases i even prefer the DA versions). i see now how that won't work. we gotta pick one or the other.

while i agree that there are plenty of bad designs in CBT (i particularly hate the concept art for the Vindicator) the same can be said of almost any design sheet. but in most cases, later concepts capitalize on certain weaknesses and come up with a better looking revamped design (the MechCommander Atlas and the concept art we found for the Kodiak being the case in point). but since there aren't any other redesigns of the old Dog other than the MW4 version (that i know of) we're sort of stuck with it  ;D.

so, seeing how the voting finally turned out, let's get to work. or, as the Japanese say it:

Gambate!

I prefer the original myself. the original still has it's lower arm acutator intact. but that just my opiniion though

I'm inclined to agree just because of your avatar ;) hehe.

I think it's time for me to let my vein hope of the recreation of the mech4 vulture :( close vote so obviously we will end up using a bit of both.

Locked voting, but feel free to discuss it further :).

CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT!
CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT!
CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT!
CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT!
CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT! CBT!

Does this count as intelligent conversation?

While I understand why alot of people like the microsfoft version, i.e. it looks way better I personally would always vote for the CBT.
Simply because it is a 60 ton mech, and yes those legs are a weak point! :)
If this mod is trying to be unique it should retain things that stop it from becoming BF and retain the strategy elements that allow a tiny elemental to take on a least a Vulture! :)
I know this is a discussion of models and nothing else, but the beefier version just looks like it should weigh a good deal more.
My 2 cents.

I think it's the arms that make the biggest difference.
Maybe have them swappable as different loadouts to get the best of both worlds.

They will be swappable with each other, and looking even better too. Plus, we may even have a dual gauss Vulture in the works  :-X.

 :P
   '
  ,'

same here :)

You're all jerks!

Me and the MW4 version will take ourselves out of this nerdy thread! jerks.. ;)

The Original CBT version please :) I don't think there is anything wrong with bulking out the Original one a bit.

LMAO!

well i do like the CBT! but also like the mw4 version!

cant you make a mix of those 2 in one? the arms from CBT and the heavy body of the mw4
That will be a Damn good mech model for a Vulture.

whit that you will make the most fans happy! you will have 2 in 1

The CBT mad dog just looks uncomfortable. It makes me feel uncomfortable to look at it, because I just cant see its gangly form moving with grace of any sort. It looks weak and spindly, and it stands with its arms sticking out at strange angles. The MW4 vulture, on the other hand, looks solid and relaxed, standing comfortably squared. The CBT mad dogs legs are just so... Bulbous!

I agree that one of the few good things to come out of M$tudios was that MW4 Vulture, even tho I detested MW4's gameplay, that vulture came out looking solid.

Thank you Pawel.

I think that Vulture looks squat and foolish. I vote CBT.

My vote's for the MW4 Vulture. I realize that the MW4 screenshot of it looks terrible, but the model that the dev team whipped up looks great. I also realize that most of the people here are real veterans/geeks (I don't mean that in a bad way at all. :P ) who have strong ties to CBT. The MW4 Vulture is something new, but not all new things are bad. The greatest part about a game universe is the fluidity, the changes in it over time, and I think the MW4 Vulture was a change for the better. The Vulture actually looks tough, heavy. Not to mention, at least one my original attractions to BT, much more utilitarian.

Heck, I even asked my brother passing by my computer, who has never had anything to do with BT, and he said he liked the MW4 version more too. His reasons were sturdier legs and bigger cab, and all around more pretty. Let's remember that the objective of this game should be introducing new ones to BT, not sticking to tradition for the sake of old timers. Either way, you know they'll play and love this if everything else works out.

amen! Well put mate

I'm a relative late comer to this topic and new to the boards but I must ask. What about the mw3 maddog? The arms on the mw3 version arn't as good as the original but the mech looked meatier IMO. And to give it that extra oomph give the missle pods the extra weapon mount at the base like those of the avatar(the mw4 nose gun can kindly mount itself elsewhere....would make a suggestion or two but this is my first post I don't wanna be rude :P).

Failing that the CBT is just as good. Of the two put foward I'll take the CBT. Some of ya's reckon it's a wirey lookin job. It's meant to be. It's a nimble long range fire support mech.

The only mw4 mech that I would probably consider is the Uziel. The rest can suck a turd :P

While I like the MW4 version, my vote would be the CBT, mainly due to nostalgia.

Man, this is a damn close poll with CBT in the lead by 2 points.

CBT!  CBT!  CBT!

If I could vote cbt, I would, but I can't find the button.

Voting has been closed a few weeks ago. There's a post from Kamikaze somewhere in this thread explaining all.

The Voting has been locked since we have come to the conclusion of more of a compromised build of the Vulture. A Hybrid of the two if you will :).

Yaaaaaayyyyyy... didn't we come to that about three months ago?

yeah, yay for revived threads

Thead's never been dead.
People keep commenting because it's stickied and we asked them to keep on posting comments.
Be nice everyone.

If it were open, I'd vote for the Microsoft re-skin; the CBT version just look much too fragile, stick-thin, and has doesn't have that layer of roughness the Microsoft version has.

Microsoft's has sharper edges, thicker battle-plate, and a more practically design throughout. And honestly, just admit, if a player outside the BTech community happened across a player in a Mad Dog chasing them down, which one would they be more afraid of, which would THEY think was cooler?

Given that Mechwarrior 2 was one of the first "modern" games I ever played, after upgrading from a 486 with Windows 3.1 to 133 mhz on Win 95, I've gotta go with the classic Mad Dog look. I've actually always thought the CBT mechs look more scary and fearsome than their MW4 counterparts.

I'm glad to hear that you are going your own route in designing a hybrid, as you say. And I am sure it'll be awesome. :P

My dream hybrid basically would be the CBT version, with the bulky armored legs of the MW4, but retaining those big awesome claw-like feet (The sharp kind, not the rounded kind as seen in MW4 games.), which help convey the "Bird of prey" feeling. The torso modified with the MW4 missile pods, but lose the mini-turret. And for the arms, I think my main qualm with the MW4 version of it is that it's just two cannons slapped onto some flimsy looking joints. Stubby, would be the word.

Where the CBT version, the arms hang lower on more arm-like joints, and look menacing. Showing off those big lasers ready to vaporize you from a distance.

Oh, and hi! XD

The MW4 version just looks generic. It looks too much like a close-combat 'Mech, instead of like the fire-support 'Mech it's supposed to be.

This is a very good point actually. Depending on the config of course it could really do both...but yes the MW4 version looks like a beefier close quarters mech where the CBT version looks far more like a nimble long range *ahem* pus!@y mech ;) jk...its a good point.

i know its a little late to throw my oar in, but as an obsessive mw2/mw3/mw4 vulture pilot i feel i should say something about probably my all time favourite mech. CBT all the way! the mw4 version is just ugly in my opinion, not befitting a speedy clan mech that snipes you from max range. so ugly was it i didn't even pilot one in mw4 until the mechpaks gave me my lovely vulture C, and then i never piloted anything else. obviously the dual gauss made it a direct fire support/sniper mech (more to my liking as i never really got on with missiles), but more importantly they changed the design back to the more refined, classic look. and we all just pilot mechs for thier looks really right? ;)

don't let those inner sphere weirdos hit your new vulture with an ugly stick! the mw3 (clan :D) version you made is amazing! (though it does need a chin mount). clan tech should be more 'alien' than IS tech anyway, that's sort of the point, and the illusion of fragility in the old vulture is a good example of this. great stuff though. loving your work! 

CBT! Make sure it can torso twist 180!

The MW4 was designed for urban battle, for my point and the breif time I used it, it was customized that way, with no long-range weaponry at all, and makiing at top speed too! The CBT version implies a more sleak look and should be a fast pased Mech, thou ofcourse tampered by all means, of it heavy equipment.
 As pointed out below it looks rather fragile, I don´t see the problem running a fragile long-range Mech as long as I can pinch my opponents, with heavy firepower, and a descent speed. As long as the equipment is functional and dos not overheat (to much) Im happy ;)

I actually think you should apply both versions in the game, and make the MW4 version a close-quarter Inner Sphere Mech, and the CBT version a Long-range Clan Mech ...
The more version of a Mech there is in the Game, the more happy we all will be ;D. And even better, the more diversity of game-play you will automatically create.

Thou however ugly and difficult to maneuver, the HEllbringer should neither be cancelled out... we Mechwarrior lives for each and every piece of hardware on the field, yes some Mechs we seek out as toys of our pleasure, my personal favorite is the Light Bushwalker, and I dont care if I´m up against an Atlas, I´ll run him dizzy and go for his joints.

And to go in MatL footsteps 180 degree torso-twist as a minimum, thou I would go for an InnerSphere version with 120 degree, and a Clan version with a full 180 degree range. !!Diversity!!

Hybrid is a great decision, the CBT does look a bit flimsy and weak whereas the MW4 version looks like it could handle alot of punishment and it isnt really obvious that its a fire-support mech at all.
So yeah, something somewhere in between would be great!

nope, both the two CBT and MW4 version, and a Hybrid ... diversity makes a game fun?

MW4 version looks to have a more reasonable concept of armor thickness than the CBT version, but I think i prefer the CBT arms and misslepods, so hybrid's my vote.

Hi, I'm new here, so this is my first post.

Just something a lot of people seem to be ignoring (and just as many pointing out) is the tactical role of the Mad Dog in the universe. It was rarely, if ever fielded as a front line short range 'mech. Rather, it is a fire support, front line 'mech (death from afar, rather than an infighter).

Look at the IS equivalent, the 65 tonne Catapult. It's even less heavily armed, and looks even weaker than the Vulture (a barrel, two boxes and a pair of legs mashed together accurately describes it).

What also must be considered is the tech used in the Mad Dog - Clan Ferro Fibrous plating requires significantly less tonnage to match equivalent IS armour.

The weaponry employed in the Mad Dog also weighs a significant amount (for the 'mech's tonnage) when compared to similar 'mechs. Paired LRM20's, Paired Clan Large Pulse Lasers, Paired Clan Medium Lasers - adds up to a bit of weight.

If I remember correctly, Clan LRM20s weigh 7.0t, Clan Large Pulse Lasers weigh 6.0t, Clan Medium Pulse Lasers weigh 2.0t. 7+7+6+6+2+2 = 30tonnes. Half the 'mechs weight. Hence the fact the CBT variant looks spindly and pissweak - it's a walking weapons platform - designed to support the heavier, better armoured mechs.

Sure the MW4 version looks beefier, and more intimidating (did I mention it's bastardised), but the CBT version is iconic.

Summing it up.

I'm pro CBT version - it represents what the 'mech SHOULD be.
The MW4 variant represents what the Mad Dog SHOULDN'T be.

Thank you, you've said it better than I'll ever be able to.

I'm just putting this in, but why on earth is everyone assuming that boxy and bulky means higher armor?

First point, I don't care if half it's weight is in weapons, weapons aside it's 40 tons. Weighs more than some other mechs.

Point 2, it's fast from what I remember, and to move all that, a lot of artificial muscle is helpful.

Third and most important, source (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mad_Dog_%28Vulture%29#Description)

It may not be a TANK, but 8 tons of armor isn't exactly a small amount either (and that about a third of it's weight in weaponry). I'm not saying the original is wrong, but I would like people to stop saying it should look like this or that because it's a weak mech. The MW4 version does look a bit off in my opinion, but I don't think the original model is a perfect match either. It should look like it can take a few hits to finish of an enemy, but not weather the storm if you will.

Personal opinion, I like the hybrid idea, as the original looks too much like an over sized light mech, while the MW4 looks too clunky to get up to it's fairly decent speeds. It should look like an opportunistic mech, capable of taking down the wounded or nearly dead, but not really suited for a fair fight.

MW4, looks more deserving of "Heavy Mech" status, and less frail, more deadly.

It's supposed to be frail, it's a long-range support 'Mech, dammit! It's not a short range, close combat 'Mech! It's a perch on the hilltop and pound you with LRMs 'Mech!

MechWarrior 4 got the role of the Vulture completely wrong, as shown in the intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxfKZZ4RNng

Erm, first off all, there are several different variants on the Vulture. And as I've said it's "role" is due to it's equipment. Yes, it's nasty as hell at range, yes it can't really stand a fair fight, but it CAN be re-equiped to have a bit of punch close up.

And second of all, I just watched 2 vultures get eatten alive as they attempted to take on forces straight on...so...where did mech4 get the vulture wrong? Yes, they have bad armor for a HEAVY mech...but they aren't delicate little fairies. They will be able to take a bit of damage, but unaided they will fall fast (unlike say, a MadCat).

Think of it this way...it's a medium mech, with a massive weapon loadout. Last I checked, medium mechs weren't exactly delicate little tulips.  ;D

i would go with the MW4 version but swap the arms from that version with those of the quad lasers. the point of the arms on the MW4 version was to make it more "omni" a clan version. I mean it is a clan mech but so many of the Mw4 mechs had those arms or very close to that look.

the cbt version.
the vulture was not just a support mech but had a lot off other stock con figs as well. i.e it could carry 2 Gauss rifles with a speed of 85 up wards.the ms version  was totally wrong.i haven't read any of the books for a long time nor have i played warrior 2 in about 10 years or so but remember the large pulse lasers weighing a lot less than somebody mentioned here.maybe some of the modders should post some of the vulture con figs from mech warrior 2 here so we can all see what they were.
thanks

im new but i have to say the mw4 version
because that the one im used to and i like the arms and turret better

Throwing my support at the CBT original. I never liked MW4's liberal interpretation of designs.

I prefer the CBT version overall, looking at the MW4 vulture it looks more like a brawling mech for closer combat when this mech is meant for long range support. I do agree that the CBT version looks a bit flimsy and think maybe you guys should make a few modifications to the old model if you choose to go with it, cause I like what Kelembai said on the first page and agree with it :)

Gotta go with the CBT one. MW4 looks really goofy.

yeah CBT is definitely better than MW 4 version. But smoething is wrog with your CBT model. It looks a little bit too light... Maybe it should look more like this one found accidently this model of Vulture/Mad Dog is perfect, great details and proportions. Maybe it will help you to upgrade your model :)

http://punakettu.deviantart.com/art/Mad-Dog-71420970 <= the model offcourse isn't my but i thout that can be helpfull :]

PS. Sorry for my English... i had quite long break from using this language and I get used of it x( Anyway came back to this forum aftera a long break :) So hi everybody :]

Hi,
Generally i m for the CBT version. My main problem with the first mech games is that you can t see wich weapons you use. So if the mod allows seperate weapons it d be cool if you could see wich weapons your enemy got (as long as the aren t hidden).

No offense to all you Dev's out there who, btw have produced and are continuing to produce some amazing results with models, maps, music and concepts, but that CBT model that Mrocz has referenced is "ROCKIN!!!!"

I voted for the mw4 version earlier, but this cbt seems to have the weaknesses covered. Mostly a little more meat on its bones, but still looking very much CBT. I would even change my vote if this version model were used.

Dont get me wrong, the modeling skills here are second to none! I just like the concept on this one a little better.

Don't get me wrong devs. I really like all Mech models you made ( some are perfect! ), but this CBT Mad-Dog, is not good as rest of Mechs o_O. Something is wrong with it... it looks too... light? And the missiles should be more hidden in missile racks, like in this art. Or maybe i should wait for final version of it... :)

O i forgot... The same artist who made this Vulture also made this one: http://punakettu.deviantart.com/art/Timber-Wolf-71433339 Can be helpfull also :>

I'd quite literally take the original Mad Dog and swap out the legs with the MS legs.  To me the legs of the original look curved and bubbly while the body looks industrial/mechanically straight cut - a design inconsistency in my opinion.

CBT. everything in mech 4 was WEAK.

  Having just recently found this project, I joined this forum because, after having read all nine pages of this thread and hearing all kinds of arguments as to why people either like or dislike the CBT Mad Dog, I couldn't believe that no one seems to see what I find so obvious.  The Mad Dog looks 'fragile', as some would say, on purpose.  It is a design feature of the Mech.  The Mech's prime configuration, which most should agree is what the mech was designed to do, is that of a support mech, it's meant to stay at range and soften up its' target with long range weaponry, only closing when it's time for the kill.  Due to the fact that it is the lightest weight possible in the heavy weight class, its armor is inferior to that of most of the mech's it's expected to share the battlefield with, after all a Timber Wolf is also a heavy mech, and I doubt anyone would argue that a Mad Dog has comparable armor.

  Though the CBT rules did not take the following into consideration, it seems plain to me that it was part of the thinking of the designer.  The Mad Dog was designed with the smallest possible frontal cross section, or to put it simply to provide the least amount of target to a mech directly in front of it.  It's design helps make it harder to hit, something a game like this can make use of, where the original board game did not.  Being harder to hit, especially at range, helps this mech over come the armor disadvantage that it suffers from when compared to the mech's it's expected to face.

  The MW4 mech, does not follow this philosophy, it tries to make it look big and beefy, something that this mech is not.  The Mad Dog wasn't designed to intimidate you on the battlefield, it was designed to be less noticeable, so that in some cases mech pilots might not even know it's there until they suddenly get rocked with a pair of LRM 15's, and once they do notice it, they find it hard to target the narrow silhouette at range.  The mech is not designed to look cool, I always thought it was rather ugly myself, its' design is that of its' function, to be survivable on a battlefield populated with heavier mechs.  One could even make the arguement that the Timber Wolf is a contiuation of this philosophy since the only real difference between the look of the two mechs is that the Timber Wolf has a thicker torso area.  It too is expected to face mechs of heavier weights though its the heaviest of the heavy weight class, it's refered to as a 'pocket' assault mech.

  Though the above should make my choice obvious, if the voting were still open I would choose the CBT mech, because it's design could finally shine in a game like this one.

Good post criminal definetly agree with you. Both Mad-Cat and Vulture are my favourite mechs ( Mad Cat MK II too ;) ), and i really love CBT version. But I see some problems with model prepared for this mod.
Firstly: Missle Racks. To be more precise Missiles holes. I am not sure about rockets comming out from the Holes. It doesn't look good, and it is quite dangeours design. Uncoverd Missiles can explode from for example machinegun hit... It also makes a lot of problems for 3D Moddeler. Becaouse how this model ill work during the game? Is there prepared animation of rockets fired from Missile Rack? And loading another salvo back? It will definitely look cool watching how missiles are coming out from missile racks holes. But i think that coverd unseenable missiles like in MW 4 version will be much easier to do... ( This statement is also for future model of Mad Cats Missile Racks... )

Secondly. Criminal is right. Definetly right. Vulture should have the smallest possible frontal cross section. BUT! It doesn't mean it can't look heavier. Well. This is great example which i posted in this topic some days ago: http://punakettu.deviantart.com/art/Mad-Dog-71420970  ;) As you can see it still have this small frontal cross. And now look at its legs. See Difrence? This Vulture legs look more heavy and stronger. Like real mech. ( It hase also great Missile Rack like i say in first pharagraph :) ) I would recommend to redesign CBT version of Mech for this mod. Offcourse it is only a proposition from great Battletech fan and greater fan of Vulture prime Mad-Dog :)

BTW. MW 4 version was supposed to be Inner Sphere version of Vulture. After the Clans War some of the mech factories ( forget names ) started to sell clan technology for Inner Sphere. Probably this was a new Vulture. How about adding MW 4 version i future booster pack as a new version of Mad-Dog Prime Vulture? :) Mede completly diffrent mech from it... :] You have the model so i think it is no problem ;]

That isn't Criminal.

o_O This avatar has tricked me o_O LMAO... Sorry Criminal sorry orionthehunter  ( please change Avatar xD )

I like the CBT than the others. It looks very similar to the MW3 version.

The CBT version all the way. I don't like the other one much.

 8)

CBT most deffinetly. Form and function    :)

I prefer the MW4 Mad Dog (Vulture) - looks more dangerous ;)

So everyone is aware actual voting on this is looong over.  We are going with a hybrid design.  Feel free to continue discussing the pros and cons of either design however.

Its ok, we take all crits here even the bad ones.  In fact we appreciate the bad ones more because it makes us, and the mod, better in the end.

Now I see that Mechwarrior/Battletech Universe is in right hands... :>

are there any renders of the hybird maddog so we can see what it looks like.

It's still in progress. I don' know if there are any renders up on the web somewhere. Hopefully one of the artists can help. I know there's 1 in the MWLL screen saver, though it's not the most current render by a long shot.

pity theres not a recent render. hope u guys got rid of that nose cannon thingy,ms totally screwed the maddog with that and its basically useless in combat.
thanks.

I know this is going to sound really crazy, but, what if you made a hybrid-chassis between the two?

There were things that made both models strangely 'flat' and this is a new mod.  Why not make a model that is impressive to look at and is a revised study of both types to find a balance?

I'm not sure if you missed it or didn't read the thread, but we're going with a hybrid Mad Dog.

I did miss it, but thanks for the heads-up.

A hybrid design? There's something to be said for that.
I'm curious how it will look like.

As this is a very sensible topic, will there be a vote whether people like the hybrid design? (when it's finished, of course)
Because there's the risk that nobody likes the hybrid design, neither the CBT design supporters nor the MW4 design supporters.

There doesn't need to be a vote, you'll all complain anyway if it's a bad design. ;D

lol, right! :D

Plp complain if you dont complain!!  ;D

I still prefer the old school one!!

I have to quote myself ...

USE ALL POSSIBLE VARIANTS

:lol: please :lol:

no

And to be kind, the main reason, for myself at least, is to keep the MWLL Vulture recognizable and somewhat iconic. And while it's not the original per say, from what I believe I've seen so far of the progress, no one will complain as it's really a very good model, and looks more like an offensively minded heavy(the modellers have been working hard to address the complaints about the CBT and the MW4 vulture, taking the better parts of each).

:D

awsum?

My argument in support of the CBT Mad Dog (even though I take it the mech is already modeled as a compromise) would simply be that the Mad Dog is NOT an offensive mech. It was designed to fill a support role, hence its inherit lack of armor and (even for clan mechs) lack of sufficient heat sinks to sustain firing its laser armament.

It was designed to be a missile boat which would stay out of harm's way as best it could and throw warheads down field. The Mechwarrior redesign was an effort to alter the Mad Dog to make it look better, when it REALLY didn't need a redesign in the first place. The end result is a mech that looks as if it strays from it's original combat support role, making it into a larger, more powerful looking machine meant to be taken right into the thick of the action.

It's simply not what the original mech was made to be. I know that to the Mechwarrior fans, it's supposed to look that way (the redesign), but I (as a Mechwarrior fan before I ever heard of Battletech), have come to see that the CBT Mad Dog is quite simply, the original, and as such, should be the portrayed version.


Now, a compromise between the two could work, but we shall see  ;)

As long as it doesn't looks so dam squat, like Pawel's Vulture model you're using in the first post.

The Mad Dog may have lacked a lot of tons of armor, but it had Ferro-Fibrous which is bulky and, honestly, had more protection than many of the IS front-line heavy mechs of the same weight, such as the Dragon, Ostroc, Quickdraw, hell, it had about the same armor as the Warhammer, what many IS commanders considered to be an assault mech due to its weaponry.

As for a missile-boat, Hardly.  In my experience the Mad Dog's pitiful supply of only 6 shots of LRM-20 ammunition were not first fire weapons, instead it would sit at range 20 (600 meters) and carve up advancing IS mechs with the Large Pulses lasers and use it's speed to avoid return LRM fire.  Any advancing heavy mech would have to deal with the fact that the Mad Dog could back up almost as fast as they could run forward and after about a minute of taking large pulse laser hits and suffering multiple armor breaches, then the Mad Dog would let fly with the LRM-20s and plan on getting an ammunition or gyroscope critical.

The medium pulse lasers were designed to let it punish any foolish light mech that thought it could close with a "support mech" and outgun it.  The pulse lasers almost ensured that even the fastest mechs were getting hit by either a 10 point large pulse laser hit, or 7 point medium pulse lasers.  Against light mechs, that amount of damage often punched armor.

The actual fluff about the Mad Dog Prime states that it's role is mostly that of a support mech and it uses its missiles at long range and then finishes foes off with its lasers.  That's fine, thematically, but with only 6 shots per LRM-20, that is a very inefficient use of the Mad Dogs weaponry and of how LRMs are best used on the tabletop.

Honestly, the clan style of fighting really doesn't give them any dedicated omni-mechs for "Run in and fight them at close range", so the "look" of the armor being a "close in brawler" has no real weight.  Even the Blackhawk's preposterous number of ER Medium lasers had the same range as an IS Large Laser and many consider it a "close in brawler".  The clan omni-mechs had speed to keep the distance between themselves and opponents and the long ranged guns to fight the battle at the range they saw fit.  Simply put, the clans dictated the flow of the battle and there wasn't a damn thing the IS could do to change that.

All of the primary configurations boast powerful long range guns, or the maneuverability to use medium ranged ones.  Only extreme variations, such as the Man o' War C with 6 ER Mediums and Ultra AC/20 were designed for city-fights, even though for all intents and purposes it was carrying the IS equivalent of 6 Large Lasers and could use them all without even overheating.

There isn't a single clan omni-mech or variation from the original 3050 TRO that doesn't have a gun (or TAG as the case is for the Koshi A) with a range of at least 12 hexes, which puts it into the medium-range band for weaponry in my book.

All this being said, the Mad Dog has long been described as a fire-support mech, but, if anything, it's the Timber Wolf who is the support platform.  Mounting 2 ER LL (with a range beyond even an ER PPC, LRM, Gauss Rifle or AC/2) and 2 LRM-20 packs (again with insufficient reloads, I might add), the Timber Wolf is best compared to the IS support mech, the Archer.  Packing heavy long-range firepower, and plenty of armor to make it nigh well indestructible to light mechs who manage to get too close.

The Mad Dog is purely an offensive mech, hence why it has few defensive features, like, say, armour or speed (5/8 is pretty average for a 60 tonner). Support is an accurate description since it really can't take attention too well but it's fantastic at picking things off.

When I ran these things in Battletech I'd leave them as close to 20 hexes as possible, and fire an LRM20 every time the heat let me. As "finishing things off" goes, you don't actually close in to do that. The medium pulse lasers are for when you get desperate. Other than that you really don't want to spend that much time within 12 hexes.

any renders for the 'new' maddog


the maddog was not just a fire support mech. theres quite a few factors that lend to this 'legend'
needless to say that it should be able to outrun and outgun anything in its weightclass, on the IS side.

To be found in the next issue of the newsletter.

OH GOD THE STRESS OF ANTICIPATION!!!!!! ;D

I'm reeeeeeeally looking forward to this one!

How soon AoP???

Kami is already sweating ;)
Newsletter is scheduled for Saturday, March 1st.

yay new news letters with new type hybrid Mad Dog

looking forward to it

aah thanks its almost time

WOAH! Just can't wait... I hope that this new Mad Dog will be great ^_^ It is one of my favourite Battlemechs... ;]

I like the mad dog and the vulture but seeing a hybrid of the two would be neat. I like the Vulture 360 veiw cockpit on top. The mad dog has some weird walls on the left/right torsos blocking some of the pilots veiw.

A Mad Dog with 360 degree veiw cockpit, a little bit bigger internal missile capacity, keep those laser cannon arms and upgrade the nose with a nice 180 degree meduim pulse laser turrent to pick of anything too close and small. The legs of the vulture are similar to the Mad Cat MKII and Mad Dog has similar legs to the mad cat. Legs could be anything.  :o

ok its the 1st where is the news letter to be found
thanks

In Kamikaze's brain I assume. To be released somewhen later today.

aawh damn

Final touches happening now ;)

Patience FTW I see

I need it... NOW!!  ;D

im registered my only for this mad dog  ;D

I love you

its just Look epic

I should have said this earlier. I don't know if the Devs would have taken this into consideration, but...

How about a cross between both models? I like the LRM 20's on the side torsos like in the MW4 version, but not the arms for the MW4 version.. I woulda given the Vully LRM 20's on each side torso, then let him have the MW2 arms.

The LRM 20's look better designed and more realistic. If I was designing a 'Mech with MISSLES (lots), I sure as HELL would not let them poke out like the MW2 version. What happens when a stray laser beam, or bullet hits t