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Iron Brain
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 07:12:29 PM »

PB....looks for and prevents?? Just exactly what?

To answer this question, from what I know of punkbuster it searches for modified game files. Unfortunatly it is NOT the end all that EA seems to treat it, as so called "memory hacks" can access the data directly during runtime. (Consiquently, WoWs system of active monitoring of running programs IS a much better way of preventing hacking, but does also bring up privacy concerns)
Personally I think the so called privacy concerns are a bit unnecessary. But what the hell Ill just post up a version of my essay on it. I keep a personal journal of essays Im always working on in my portfolio thingy. Ill rewrite it for the purposes of this thread tho.
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 01:53:56 AM »

Actually, direct access to data on your computer completely outside the direct environment of the game is a HIGHLY valid reason for privacy concerns. However, with such systems as WoWs, I worry less because hey, they ALREADY have my credit card number Wink
However, in a free service like ours, I could EASILY see this as being like a trojan, even if we do not use it for illicit practices, and remember, if you sign the EULA we're allowed to do whatever it says Wink. This is why people really SHOULD read those more carefully.

With the sensitive data on my computer, I'd rather not have random people allowed to rummage through it.
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 06:54:09 PM »

Hey guys, sorry this is so late, I know I made it seem like I was guna post this rite up. Something came up with my karate I hade to take care of and then I caught a nasty upper respiratory infection that I’m still getting over. My old health insurance is gone now yada yada yada…

Also this isn’t quite what I had planned for an “essay” but I wanted to get it up before 1.2 came out.




Here are question I have asked my self while contemplating hacks. Pondering them for me has shown more light on the topic. What makes it possible? How can we stop hacking. Would shutting down public hack sites effect the number of on line cheaters? Is that even possible? Would specific criminal law that defines hacking in games as a crime prevent any would be hackers? If so, should the those laws be stiff or lenient? What is the direct result on the video game industry from hackers? Can we totally prevent hacking? Would reducing the number of hackers by 90% be as good as stopping them all? Would a 90% decrease in cheating negate the harmful effect hacking has on the industry?

Rite now hacking seems like an unknown to the public domain. Research is done on all sorts of obscure things to test their effects on the economy. Or perhaps rather the marketability of a product or to test for a deficit. I am not privy to internal market research being conducted and I am sure the results of any such research would be revealing. It would be a great way to weight the cost of preventing hacks against a known worth. However, testing of that sort may not account for things such as public opinion or consumer ratings witch also effect sales. Those things would require extra polling. (On that note, if no one is, has or will reveal recent findings I plan to organize some tests of my own)

I personally think game hacking could breed a micro economy much like computer viruses and spy ware have. They have created a need for professional anti virus software. Game hacking is so similar to any other form of computer crime that we can apply many of the same rules to it as we can the more traditional rolls of hackers.

Here are the effective methods of preventing hacks. Moderation is involvement of live people who actively investigate reports of cheaters and take the necessary actions to stop it. “Anti-hacking” programs are software that scan a client to determine if they are using a cheat, it will then issue a ban or a kick if they are caught.

Here are some of the ways that cheaters work. They play on servers with no anti-hacking software. They program or DL hacks that can not be detected by anti-hacking software. Some hackers use cheats on servers that are unmoderated or they try to disguise the fact that they are hacking. Some times they buy, steel or fake a new on line identity, or key-code in order to surpass a ban.

I believe that as the currently successful methods for preventing cheats evolve and progress it will radically improve effeteness. In order to work it may require a shift in the way games are implemented.

Now then, I have already stated the similarities between game hacking and other forms of cyber crime. This is where it gets more useful. I believe that game exploits fallow the same rules that browser and OS hacks do. The more people there are that use the same type of OS, browser, anti virus or in game cheat protection, the more hacks there are that are going to be written for it. Mac and Firefox are attacked less than Windows and IE. So is it possible that proprietary and highly unique anti hacking programs will have less exploits found for them than will a widely used method such as Punk Buster? Some evidence might support that idea.

MOH:AA was a very popular game with both cheaters and normal players. Eventually some one came along and programmed their very own anti cheat just for that game. It was Black Bart, one of the original developers of the game. The program was the much hated Missionary. It was cumbersome and slow, with new updates all the time. But, it worked. I did a search through the hacker community and it looked like any one who asked about Missionary got told to shut up because there were no hacks that worked for it.

There have been other games with unique cheat protection that have had more success that wider used variants. This is ether because less people want to spend the time work on it, or because they held some technological advantage over other methods. Sorry I aint guna go thru all that research here and now I’m still to sick for that kind of thing. Long story short, unique anti cheat programs have a better track record than PB.

A combination of software detection and professional moderation are used in subscription game such as WoW and EQ2. Also, new methods of detecting and stopping cheaters are developed over the games life time. This insures that cheat prevention can go toe to toe with hackers who are them selves always trying to find new ways to cheat. In addition to that, subscription games have the heist level of user authentication of any other game. They have you name, DoB and card number as well as your games key code. IP and MAC spoofs will not work to circumvent a ban in subscription games.


Is it possible that the feature of one line FPS will the see the rise of professional live moderation?  If there is a market for it then I’m sure it could. In some shape way or form there might be money to make in professional one line moderation of private servers. Imagine buying or renting a server and being able to pay extra for live cheat protection when server admins are not on line. We might also see more regular use of credit card and other forms of ID(biometric) used to recognize people on line in order to better sort out the riff raff. It would also be needed if criminal law were to apply.

Lastly, what about the law? There are already laws that prohibit things such as spam and phishing sites on the internet in the USA. But most of these crimes come from computers over seas. But what about game hackers? This isn’t a crime born purely out of money making and fraud. Some people hack just cause they like the way it rubes their little e-peen. Would making game hacking a crime prevent any of these hackers? Remember, rite now, the worst thing that can happen to a game hacker is they will get banned from a server or maybe a PB ban. That penalty doesn’t prevent all the hackers from using them, the ones who do use hacks probably don’t care about a ban any way.

Personally, I think making game hacking a criminal crime would prevent a lot of it from happening. But the fever in my brain is making it hard to think good rite now, so I’m just guna leave off here. When you look at this idea, it is clear we still have a long way to go in getting the gaming industry up to where the movie industry is. For it to fully mature, these issue need to sort them selves out.

I am anxious to see how the propriatarty anti hacking measure that Crytek is working on will play out. I have hi hopes for it.


« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 07:01:16 PM by Iron Brain » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 09:39:34 AM »

Hey guys, sorry this is so late...

Please post some more Wink I´ll return too this later Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2008, 10:40:22 PM »

The only problems with making online cheating a punishable crime are enforcement, especially in terms of dollar cost, and the seriousness of the "crime". The first time congress sees a bill proposing making video game cheating a punishable crime, they will laugh it under the table. Spending possibly millions of taxpayer dollars to apprehend 12 yr olds cheating at first person shooter video games would never pass the smell test for the people handing out the funding. Also, say you catch some 7th grader hacking the game. You send the cops to his house, and apprehend the crimal. What's the punishment for cheting at a video game? I've cheated at Monopoly before, and I damn sure don't want to go to jail for it. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is up.
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TimoBlastem
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 01:12:52 AM »

Interesting post, though you seem to think that hacking video games is a threat to national security.

I'm an admin on a BF1942 server and punkbuster has long given up updating it's software for that title.  Something about a six year old game that few people play.  Whatever.  I'm not a programmer, and I only have a conceptual knowledge of hacking, but we deal with hacks and hackers on a regular basis.

Most cheaters fall into two catagories.  The first is the guy who just wants to beat everyone at the game without developing skill, the other is simply finding out just what he can get away with.  The latter is the variety that resembles the traditional hacker, you hit that on the head.  However, the pressures for stopping cheating aren't as great as you think.  For one, many hackers who are banned from a game simply buy another copy and try again.  This increases sales and rewards companies for stomping out hackers, but not doing too good of a job.  That's one roadblock.

Another problem is that most hacks can be accomplished multiple ways.  For instance, the most deadly thing you can do to a gun is not have it automatically aim for your enemies head, rather turn off the random spread of bullets leaving the gun.  Aimbots are easy to spot without anti-cheat software because everyone near the guy gets shot in the head.  No deviance hacks make your bullets fly straight even when firing in fully-automatic.  If you and someone of equal skill are shooting at each other, more of your bullets will hit.  Period.  This can be accomplished by disabling the algorithm that determines bullet randomization, by say, setting every value to 1, or by eliminating the code that tells your gun it's recoiling, etc.  You can also gain advantages by changing the file that says your tank has 100 armor to 150.  You get an edge, but you haven't changed the file size enough for PB to pick it up, because it's still three characters long.  Effective hacking is about small advantages, not god-mode.

How do you prevent this?  Well despite your claims, PB isn't that bad, and it has gotten better.  In older titles, PB is a server-based program that scans individuals computers one at a time from the server every so often.  This drains the server and causes inconsistent checks.  In newer titles, such as ET:QW, PB is its own executable file that runs on your computer and checks your files continuously, as long as the application is running.  And when you exit QW, PB is still running in your processes.

Furthermore, it's not as easy to defeat PB as you think.  The reason is that as cheats are found, the specific hacks are added to the list of things to check.  When the PB team finds out that you can hack your armor to 150, they write a code that makes sure that specific value is 100.  This code is released with many others in each PB update.  So in effect, it's both professional moderation and anti-cheat software in one.  Every time an update came out, hundreds of people were caught.  When these people are caught, their information is automatically streamed to the MBL, or Master Ban List.  Any server subscribing to PB gets an updated copy of this list every month.  If you are caught on one server, you're banned from them all.  Also, the way cheats are written are completely game-independent.  That's why there are different versions of PB for different games.  There isn't a perfect PB-proof hack that can be applied to all games.

However, there are still PB-proof hacks, especially in older titles.  Most of them involve starting an .exe after the game is running, and they can usually be turned off by pressing a button.  Awesome.  These are the hacks that take advantage of static memory allocation, because you can inject your code into the running game code since you know exactly where everything is in the memory allocation tables.  PB checks for files, not what's running in your memory.  Static memory allocation has fallen out of favor because of this.  I doubt many new games still use it.

This is why servers employ multiple tactics simultaneously.  For instance, BF server admins have the ability to take a screen shot of exactly what you see on your computer screen at any given moment.  If you can see through walls, they will know.  In fact, any hack that modifies your display in any way is a risk.  Vigilant admins catch many hackers this way, since radar hacks and name tag hacks are very common, and are(were) easy to hide from PB.

Even still, some hacks are programmed to return a blank screen shot, or a pre-made clean screen shot when the request is made of the client computer.  This is where a little admin PI comes into play.  You need to know where the guy is when you screen shot him, and of course, make sure it's on the same map.  Sometimes, it's just a matter taking many screen shots of the same suspicious guy over and over until you see something odd.  My clan bans for blank screen shots, since only about 1/1000 are due to the video card.

The bottom line is that it's nearly impossible to check everything all the time.  If the server is constantly making sure you aren't turning your plane a little too sharp based on your speed and the effects of gravity; or adding up all the damage done by the cosine of the angle of the tank shell that just hit your armor to see if you're taking more than 100 damage, the server wouldn't be able to run.  The same is true if you're doing it on your computer.  Imagine running crysis AND a program that analyses every bit of code as it traverses your motherboard.  Good freaking luck.

Lastly, you have to hurt someone, or steel something to be punished for a crime.  I don't see either of those happening when you hack.  Sorry.  At worst, it will go to civil court, never criminal.

They invented the safe to stop bank robbers.  Bank robbers started stealing keys.

Sorry if this is redundant to anyone here.  I didn't see anyone more knowledgeable than I (and there are thousands) speaking up on the subject.
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2008, 07:57:47 AM »

Good write up on the subject, Timo.
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2008, 09:20:12 AM »

Timo's got it down pretty well, but there's something being missed. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. For some the fun is in the gameplay and for others its in the hacking. In a sense they're just playing to their strengths which include finding how to modify the game, even if they don't include skills at gameplay. Now, that said, one person's fun should not ruin another's, so rather than play on agreed on no-hack servers there should be, and usually are, servers set up that allow hacking. I have friends, for example, that only enjoy playing World of Warcraft, on hackable servers. It doesn't make the game less challenging, just a different challenge.

I'm not saying we should specifically encourage such behavior, but I don't personally have a moral objection to it either, as long as everyone playing on that server knows it's a hack play server. To borrow a corporate amercia stock phrase, it's just "thinking outside the box".
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:23:20 AM by ToeBall » Logged

darktimes
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 10:26:25 AM »

i think the most hackers leave mods alone

becouse they need to download it
and have "fun" hacking in vanilla
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 11:45:34 AM »

i think the most hackers leave mods alone

becouse they need to download it
and have "fun" hacking in vanilla

Maybe, but when you run a mod, you have to run the server in "unpure" mode, making it easier to hack.  So people may hack mods more.  I really can't say.   Undecided
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2008, 01:28:00 PM »

"why download a mod to hack there?

if i can have fun whit my uber1337 super hack package for 100 dollar??"

 Cheesy

you know..

counter strike have hackers and cheaters

but in all over 100 mods i tryed i haven't found one hacking as****
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 01:29:35 PM by darktimes » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2008, 03:07:53 PM »

but in all over 100 mods i tryed i haven't found one hacking as****

Project Reality (BF2) and Insurgency Mod (Source Engine) both suffered from hackers in the past. Not to the same extent as the original games, but they did.
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 12:50:50 AM »

The only problems with making online cheating a punishable crime are enforcement, especially in terms of dollar cost, and the seriousness of the "crime". The first time congress sees a bill proposing making video game cheating a punishable crime, they will laugh it under the table. Spending possibly millions of taxpayer dollars to apprehend 12 yr olds cheating at first person shooter video games would never pass the smell test for the people handing out the funding. Also, say you catch some 7th grader hacking the game. You send the cops to his house, and apprehend the crimal. What's the punishment for cheting at a video game? I've cheated at Monopoly before, and I damn sure don't want to go to jail for it. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is up.
    This is all wrong. Enforcement isnt a problem with very deep levels of authentication. The seriousness of the crime? Well if the punishment for being caught is having your internet connection revoked, enforcement will be even that much easier. You truly over estimate the US Congress. The people handing out the funding would be the taxpayers. They dont seem to have any say at all about how their money is spent. Congress is proposing a 700 billion dollar spending increase over the next 5 years, it wouldnt be a problem. Maybe you better keep your "Get out of jail free" the next time you play.

    Part of my idea already considers the difference between criminal and civil action. Action really isn’t the problem that you think it is. Publishers such as Sony have already filed huge lawsuits and made criminal charges against cheaters in their games. Sony’s problem was that the purps all came from over seas.

    Subscription games are proving to be cash cows for some companies. And for them, filing charges against some one for breaking into their servers and corrupting data is easy as pie if the criminals are in a country willing cooperate with native law enforcement.

This issue goes far, far beyond wall hackers and aim bots. Hacking is a problem that can cost companies boat loads of cash.

    Yes, every time a cheater had to buy a new game it was revenue for the people who put the game out there. But what about the people who quite the game or vowed never to return to a product line because of the cheaters? This is an even bigger problem with subscription games where money is made over time. Unlike regular FPSs, subscription games need to keep people playing even after they have bought the box. The splash damage caused by hackers will cost SoE millions over the course of a few years.

    They way I see it, there are two ways we can go about this. We can let the government decide for us, in witch case they will start reading our e-mail at their leisure for our safety, or the industry can self regulate.

“Cyber Security  = Spying

In a profile appearing in The New Yorker magazine, U.S. Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell lays out his  vision for a safer cyberspace: The government should have the authority to look at every piece of information traveling over the internet in the United States. Only in this way can the country’s financial institutions be safe guarded from cyber attacks by terrorists, according to McConnell. Lets hope Congress doesn’t just roll over on this one.”

Maximum PC APRIL 2008 VOL.13 NO 4 Page 12

    If we let him decide game cheats could be considered terrorists and you will end up in Gitmo, not jail.

    As it is, hacking in to any corporate network can land you in prison for years. Hacking a game server from Sony is no different. There is no difference between hacking in EQ2 or WoW for profit and breaking into in other company and steeling information or corrupting data for personal gain. Thats how the law sees it, for now. Its an evolving marketplace and the laws are going to evolve with it. Either we can evolve them or McConnell can. You decide.

    As for PB, it is what it is. You guys say that MW:LL wont have any hacks because it’s a mod. Well you’ve caught on but you missed the point entirely. My point was that unique and proprietary anti-cheat measures will have less breaks, you say that mods have less cheats for the same reason? So I am rite about PB, it has more cheaters because it is the more popular method for cheat prevention… Just like Leopard gets attacked less than XP, because it has fewer users. Also it might require more effort to break based on a smaller pool of newly found exploits and the fact that it is simply different from the norm. It requires more specialization.

    I still believe that with a combination of new methods for cheat prevention, subscription services and small amount of regulation we can prevent enough of the hackers.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 01:21:23 AM by Iron Brain » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 03:19:14 AM »

The only problems with making online cheating a punishable crime are enforcement, especially in terms of dollar cost, and the seriousness of the "crime". The first time congress sees a bill proposing making video game cheating a punishable crime, they will laugh it under the table. Spending possibly millions of taxpayer dollars to apprehend 12 yr olds cheating at first person shooter video games would never pass the smell test for the people handing out the funding. Also, say you catch some 7th grader hacking the game. You send the cops to his house, and apprehend the crimal. What's the punishment for cheting at a video game? I've cheated at Monopoly before, and I damn sure don't want to go to jail for it. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is up.
    This is all wrong. Enforcement isnt a problem with very deep levels of authentication. The seriousness of the crime? Well if the punishment for being caught is having your internet connection revoked, enforcement will be even that much easier. You truly over estimate the US Congress. The people handing out the funding would be the taxpayers. They dont seem to have any say at all about how their money is spent. Congress is proposing a 700 billion dollar spending increase over the next 5 years, it wouldnt be a problem. Maybe you better keep your "Get out of jail free" the next time you play.

....

    Subscription games are proving to be cash cows for some companies. And for them, filing charges against some one for breaking into their servers and corrupting data is easy as pie if the criminals are in a country willing cooperate with native law enforcement.

This issue goes far, far beyond wall hackers and aim bots. Hacking is a problem that can cost companies boat loads of cash.



1: all of those issues are backed up by EULA's, and the fact that the hacking is occurring on SOMEONE else's property. They hacking that you are talking about, and the hacking the PB is designed to stop are entirely different issues. Hacking of servers is a direct attack on private property. Subscription servers and public servers are very different things, and fall into very different categories of the law. Everything you have said is 90% bullocks, sprinkled with enough facts to give it the appearance of credibility.

2: Congress approved a budget increase of 700 billion over the next 5 years...on what precisely? Or was that the ENTIRE budget? If anything but specifically relevent issues, "budget increases" when the American dollar's value is dropping like a lead brick, an increase like that is pretty much a "cost of living" increase for the governments total spending.

3: Punkbuster is all well and good, and DOES work, however it is not the end all be all that MANY people see it as, simply because they cannot understand the complexity that hacking can take. Now, it has vastly improved, and to be honest until hacking DOES occur, it is much easier to simply program the engine as best you can, then take counter-measures later since someone will ALWAYS manage to hack the game in some way.

4: Cheating in games is NEVER good for the company. Period.To a certain extent, hacking is accepted and expected because in a way it is the grassroots of all modding. The goal of a game engine is to be as flexible and powerful as possible, yet still maintain at least a satisfactory level of security.

5: I'm making games now. We have no interest in people who want to "hack" it. They would be spoiling the goals and point of the game for us, and ruining the fun of others (cheat hackers, not recreational mod hackers). However, you don't see us researching anti-hacking material...do you know why? It's difficult...VERY difficult. Your statements show that you obviously know little of how computers work, or that hacking is childs play when compared to the practice of hack prevention.





And on a side note, if Congress bothers to have an investigation of the phone tapping of citizens in the name of "National Security" I think that there is not much likelyness that a "Big Brother"  law on video games would pass.
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2008, 11:41:25 AM »

^Kudos. 

Also, it's a fallacy to say that PB is bad because people hack PB games more.  PB is hacked more because it's so widely used, which you stated yourself.  It's analogous to say that if you own 90 percent of the ships in the ocean, you suck because pirates hit your ships more often.  When in reality, you're hit more often because you own 90 percent of their targets.  There's no way to avoid it.

You're arguing that the effect creates the cause.

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