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Author Topic: An alternative to the cbt range system  (Read 474 times)
Flyingdebris
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« on: March 11, 2008, 10:56:46 AM »

Hi, this is my first post.  My name's flyingdebris, I used to do concept art for MTS when we were still MTS, and have a server obsession with mechs and a lot of vested interest in this project.

Anyway on to my point.  Here's an idea, take it for what its worth.

For the most part, the weapon ranges in BT were designed for the tabletop in mind, where it was not really possible to simulate recoil, ballistic drop, weapon performance, rof, or the many little things that influence how hard it is to hit a guy other than range and a few modifiers, as well as for the sake of not needing a whole floor full of hex sheets.

If one studies modern weapons for more than a few minutes, one thing quickly becomes apparent, most vehicle mounted weapons that are deemed as short range top out at 1km or more. And long range could mean dozens of km in the case of some weapons. 

I'm not saying that combat should take place at such extreme ranges, but to simply get rid of arbitrary range restriction. So that if you can aim at the guy across the map with your mgs, you can hit him.

So that instead of weapon balance coming from what range it is used at, it comes from stuff like, level of ballistic drop, projectile speed, missle maneuverability, rate of fire, accuracy, recoil, and stuff like that.  In this way, if i saw some guy on the other side of the map, and i fired my ac20 1 shot at a time, compensating for drop, while moving slowly, i should be able to nail him.  Stuff like SRMs and LRMs could easily be diferenciated by missle performance, SRMs being faster and a little more agile at close range, while still being able to theoretically reach longer ranges, while LRMs are clumsy at close range but get tenaciously more difficult to deal with at their effective range. Lasers could be balanced off stuff like beam duration and fire delay, i don't want to say focal point, because a laser system 1000 years from now probably already has an automatic focusing system.

Those are my 2 cents.

Thoughts?
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Somebody Else
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 11:45:40 AM »

I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas on projectile weapons. However lasers should degenerate over longer distances to emulate dispersion (else they would be the ultimate sniper weapons, no recoil, instant travel time=point and click), and Missiles would have fuel consumption to worry about (that alone could probably differentiate between the two; SRM's run out of fuel and become slow ballistics after a relatively short range? Whilst LRM's have slower turn because of weight of fuel etc??).

Maybe for smaller projectiles (MG's) you'd have to worry about air resistance and the like. But for large weapons? Yeah, sure. LBX close range spread, AC any range if you work out leading/gravity factors? I love it. Maybe a little (very little) inaccuracy to the recticle to stop whole-map-length sniping with AC20s. It's a GREAT idea, but needs a little developing and specifics.

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if i saw some guy on the other side of the map, and i fired my ac20 1 shot at a time, compensating for drop, while moving slowly, i should be able to nail him

Definitely. Recoil, gravity, air resistance, travel time. If you can take these into account you should be able to hit an opponent with a ballistic projectile. Maybe not whole map, but that would be for balance reasons.

Welcome to the board ^_^ Hell of a first post!
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Tharnow
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 12:18:20 PM »

In Battletech, the short ranges are explained by degraded aiming tech. Sure, you could fire your weapons at longer ranges, but you wont hit any small and/or moving target, thus, wasting heat and ammo.

I like this explanation, because i like the concept of lost technology. It may be unrealistic, but it is cool. And it makes Battletech different from modern day combat: Shoot at long range, check if you hit something, shoot again and so on. Instead, we have movement and close-combat.

For the sake of balance, rapidly decreasing precision on ballistic, limited lifetime on lasers/missiles represents this perfectly and still allows hitting large, static targets or barrages.
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PanzerBoxb
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 12:39:38 PM »

While the technology explanation worked for the initial BattleTech, once the Clans came in and technology started coming back, it seemed rather contrived at times.
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Flyingdebris
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 01:11:15 PM »

also, please, could gauss rifle projectiles be made to actually go ballistically faster than autocannon rounds and not have an over the top swirly effect?

thats always annoyed me.

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ToeBall
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 03:02:14 PM »

There's a few problems with that. First off, to do a realistic job we'd have to do bullet drop and velocity bleed calculations for point of impact, and then on top of that calculate terminal ballistics based on the velocity at the target. In theory that's no big deal, but what is the ballistic coefficient of a AC10 bullet? What is the muzzle velocity and grain size? This was never documented in CBT. Now, just because a bullet can reach out that far does not mean it can do any significant damage there, especially against an armored target. I shoot my hand loaded 5.56 out to 600 yards. It's fine for shooting fruit, eggs, or paper, but against a real target the performance is iffy.
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MWLLKeeper
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 03:11:40 PM »

ACtually, though I don't want it over the top, the "swirl" is somewhat signature of the gauss cannon.

Also trust me, air resistance is not built into the engine Sad

Now, if you want to see what are ballistics are capable of, go play in the sandbox for a while. Every day we discover new things the engine IS capable of,

And yes, an AC20 CAN go a long as way theoretically, but hitting it is DAMN hard EVEN at 300 meters. Past that, skeet shoot isn't even the word :p . The ranges for ballistic type weapons are going to primariliy come from difficulty of hitting at range, though they will eventually "expire" to signify them loosing damage effectiveness at a certain range(obviously for balance).
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Zeus6S
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 03:22:34 PM »

I liked to think of the ranges listed in CBT as the weapons effective Anti-mech range.  Firing beyond that range at a mech was folly because mech armor is so advanced that the shot simply deflects, refracts, or is reacted against by the mech's armor.  I think battlemech armor is like 12-16 different layers of composites and materials designed to combat all manner of weaponry, it would make sense that any one of those layers would be in place to prevent stray shots from punching, extreme range lasers from melting, and falling missiles from blasting through the mech's armor.

Additionally, I wanted to point out an alternate rule for CBT that I really liked.  It covers the missile hit table and how range affects it (this is really key for LBX type weapons).

Basically at short range a missile system gets a bonus to the number of missiles that hit (I can't recall the exact figures, but it's like a +1 or +2 on the missile hit table.  Medium range gets no benefit, while long range has a -1 or -2 penalty.  This means that at close range an LBX cluster munition will hit with more pellets than at long range, on average, which, in my opinion, supports the realistic use of the weapon much more accurately than CBT does.

$0.02
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Flyingdebris
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 03:31:43 PM »

have you seen the video of that railgun testfire though? Sure its not a gauss rifle per say.  But real life magnetic weapons do have their own brand of cool effects.

if anything i would opt for really strong air distortion with visible (kinda swirly) pressure waves.  I just don't want them to rival ppcs in the big blue glowy department
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Raptor Khatib
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2008, 01:58:14 AM »

I'm just going to say this a Gauss rifle and a Rail gun in design are to totally different beasts (working on a similar idea). A rail gun if I remember right from my high school physics class is a projectile forced out by straight linear rails. While A Gauss Rifle uses coils in the same fashion as a rail gun but has an added swirl. So realistically the swirl should be there.
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zaha
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2008, 06:31:39 AM »

ACtually, though I don't want it over the top, the "swirl" is somewhat signature of the gauss cannon. (...)

Wasn't the swirl just something microsoft added in MW4? MW3 didn't have a swirl and I can't remember reading something about a swirl in the books, either.

There's no swirl mentioned in the description of gauss rifles in a general sourcebook describing battletech technologies, too. (BattleTech - Die Welt des 31. Jahrhunderts. Don't know if it was released in english, too)
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ToeBall
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2008, 09:09:42 AM »

The effects will come from our artists and they're usually really amazing at coming up with stuff that's new and cool and yet "feels" like this is how it should be. The great thing about working on a Mech project with a bunch of Mech fans is they intuitively know that something isn't right and fix it. The PPC will be the king of the blue flaming dust bunny effect, the gauss riffle will have its own effects too.
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