Movement

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	Author	Topic: Movement (Read 1952 times)

PanzerBoxb

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Re: Movement

« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2008, 12:53:13 PM »

Yes.


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AoP

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Re: Movement

« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 01:43:48 PM »

Quote from: IgnisTemper on April 21, 2008, 12:28:37 PM

I just watched that MW 3 intro for the first time in years and I started wondering, does anyone else think that MW 3 trumped MW 4 in gameplay due to it being more true to CBT?

MW3 is the only part of that series I never played, therefore I can't judge it, but I must admit I liked MW4, all parts.


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Re: Movement

« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM »

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As I agree that a Mech should build up it's speed (just like any other vehicle), I don't think a throttle fits a Mech. A throttle means rather indirect control of speed, just perfect for planes or aerospace. They rarely need to abruptly adjust their speed to their surroundings, so it's an adequate speed control. Mechs, on the contrary, are combat robots built after a human paradigm. Superior mobility is often mentioned as one of the key advantages of mechs over other war machines or combat vehicles. Of course, a mech can't accelerate to its max speed in a leap just like men can, that's because they are mechanic and not perfect.

But I don't see, why they should not have an adequate acceleration and why they should not be able to stop rather abruptly (think about the mad cat in the mechwarrior 3 intro, stopping abruptly right in front of the atlas as it got intercepted. Doesn't look unrealistic to me). Furthermore, high mobility is not all about fast acceleration or slowdown, it's also about maneuverability. I think mechs should be more maneuverable as ground vehicles, a throttle control just would not do justice to this. Even said ground vehicles don't have a throttle, as it would only restrict their maneuverability and is not advisable, as you have to accelerate/decelerate rather often compared to planes (except for truck drivers using a cruise control on a highway, but that's not comparable). So why should mechs have a throttle, then?

Yeah, in the past mechwarrior titles there was always a throttle control for mechs. But why? In the books they say mechwarriors control the speed of their mechs by some kind of pedal at the foot of the mechwarrior. Not sure how exactly this work's, but this does not sound like an airplane throttle control. Just because it was always this way does not automatically mean it's the best solution. Alas, in the past mechwarrior titles, I don't think the mobility of the mechs was depicted how it should have been.

All of the above is my personal opinion on this topic. We'll have to see how all of this works out. I hope we can find a solution that satisfies the most fans and does justice to the mechs.

What do you think that pedal at the bottom of the mech controls? What does the pedal in a car control? The throttle plate! it may not seem like it makes sence but thats just the way it is. Just because you can instantly open the throttel plate all way in a F-350 does not mean that the F-350 is at its maximum speed instantaneously. If the mechs have have a throttle control on a joystick it does not mean that player will be able to instantly go form a stop to max speed to a stop again in one second. I dont see why I should have to keep my finger pressed on the stupid W key all the time when Im walking forward. Tying movement with direction input is a bad way of doing things on a keyboard.

Even a jet fighter isnt instantly at its maximum speed when it kicks the after burners. Fighter aircraft have a better than 1:1 ratio of weight to thrust. How does a throttle restrict movement? I dont understand that. From my experiance a throttle has never hampered my control. Its not that hard to adjust it while controlling direction. With a joystick you have one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle. Even with a keyboard you can have one hand on the QWEASD and the other on the throttle controll buttons. Its much better with a stick tho because then you also have control over other inputs with the hand on the stick. But even on my old Sidewinder the hand that controls the throttle can reach other buttons on the stick while still adjusting speed.

BTW, no, a mech is not going to skid across the ground.


« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 05:03:12 PM by Iron Brain »	Logged

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AoP

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Re: Movement

« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

If you take away throttling and joystick support you will take away everything good about mechs. Furthermore, why would anyone want the controls to be more like Crysis? The vehicle controls in Crysis are horrible. Thats also a problem of bad physics and getting stuck on invisible walls, I hope thats not a problem in this game.

As this is one of the major factors that keeps some of us from playing Crysis, rest assured that we'll do everything possible to avoid this.


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Sturmadler

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Re: Movement

« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2008, 04:52:53 PM »

Quote

I just watched that MW 3 intro for the first time in years and I started wondering, does anyone else think that MW 3 trumped MW 4 in gameplay due to it being more true to CBT?

3 was definitely a better game all around. MW4 was little more than an update in graphics, an adjustment in controls, and missions that were fairly uninspired compared to an assault on a clan homeworld.

Plus the pulse lasers in 4 were silly, almost as ridiculous as the PPCs in mechassault.


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Re: Movement

« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2008, 04:57:12 PM »

Quote from: AoP on April 21, 2008, 04:50:55 PM

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

As this is one of the major factors that keeps some of us from playing Crysis, rest assured that we'll do everything possible to avoid this.

Love you


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PanzerBoxb

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Re: Movement

« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2008, 05:00:38 PM »

Throttling with a keyboard is not too difficult but it is not as intuitive as with a dedicated controller. I had no problem using games that used the 1-0 keys for set throttle increments and allowed for gradual adjustment from another key.


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Re: Movement

« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2008, 05:10:15 PM »

Quote from: Sturmadler on April 21, 2008, 04:52:53 PM

Quote

I just watched that MW 3 intro for the first time in years and I started wondering, does anyone else think that MW 3 trumped MW 4 in gameplay due to it being more true to CBT?

I agree.
Mech 3 was the best game all around.
Ironically, they downgraded the textures and controls in my opinion.
Looked like a Saturday Morning Cartoon with those shitty textures slapped on.

"HAY GUYZ, IF I USE THIS NEATO PHOTOSHOP FILTER AND PLASTER IT ON A UV MAP IT LOOKS LIKE CAMO HUR HUR HUR*


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Sturmadler

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Re: Movement

« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2008, 05:40:23 PM »

true, I think it was because MW3 it got in early on the wave of 3D Acceleration. Most games from that era look like crap compared to their predecessors.


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zaha

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Re: Movement

« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2008, 01:35:41 PM »

First off, sorry to dissect your Post, Iron Brain, but it's easier to answer that way.

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

What do you think that pedal at the bottom of the mech controls? What does the pedal in a car control? The throttle plate! it may not seem like it makes sence but thats just the way it is. (...) I dont see why I should have to keep my finger pressed on the stupid W key all the time when Im walking forward. Tying movement with direction input is a bad way of doing things on a keyboard.

Well, of course, the pedal controls the throttle plate. But I'm not talking about hidden techincal aspects of speed control, I'm talking about the feel and direct way of controlling your speed. Putting the acceleration discussion aside (since it's another story), I would prefer a more direct way of controlling a mechs speed with keyboard.
Yeah, I could control the mech with WASD with my left hand and at the same hover with my right hand over 1-9. First, that's a rather inconventient posture. It's no problem with a joystick, but we're talking solely about keyboard control here. On the other hand, how shall I twist my torso or even shoot like that? My right hand has to control the mouse if I want to combat, and then I'll lose the ability to alter my speed in a fast way, since abrupt speed chances aren't possible with W or S, like jump from 0 to 100%. But this is necessary, escpecially in combat situations. That's my main concern.
It's inconvenient while cruising since you have to constantly hold down the W key, I acknowledge this, but that's not unsolvable. Providing a direct speed control for WASD does not mean there is absolutely no throttle control on 1-9 for cruising.

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

How does a throttle restrict movement? I dont understand that. From my experiance a throttle has never hampered my control. Its not that hard to adjust it while controlling direction. With a joystick you have one hand on the stick and one hand on the throttle. Even with a keyboard you can have one hand on the QWEASD and the other on the throttle controll buttons. Its much better with a stick tho because then you also have control over other inputs with the hand on the stick. But even on my old Sidewinder the hand that controls the throttle can reach other buttons on the stick while still adjusting speed.

As mentioned above, if W increases throttle and S decreases it, it will take some time to increase your throttle setting from 0 to 100% while using W. It's no 0 to 100% jump in merely a second, rather it will take about 4 or 5 seconds, depending on the granularity of control we think is appropriate. Of course, you're mech's not going from 0 till 100% speed in just on key push, but I don't see why it should be bound to the time it takes increase/decrease your throttle setting. Again I like to emphasize we're solely talking about keyboard controls here.

Concering Mech acceleration, I think we're lacking real world experience here. Can Mechs accelerate rather fast, like humans can, or are they more like clumsy vehicles, which take their time to reach top speed. I personally think, Mechs are more advanced than vehicles in this area, since they are more human-like. That's my personal opinion, so I would suggest leaving this as it is and concentrate on discussions worth to be talked out.

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

BTW, no, a mech is not going to skid across the ground.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

Regards,
mike

oh, and btw, yeah... MW3 was the coolest game of the series. Actually, the MW3 demo was the trigger which woke my interest in battletech. Soon after, I began reading the books, playing the table top and getting really immsered in battletech =)


« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 01:39:38 PM by zaha »	Logged

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Chaoswolf

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Re: Movement

« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2008, 02:08:16 PM »

Quote from: zaha on April 24, 2008, 01:35:41 PM

First off, sorry to dissect your Post, Iron Brain, but it's easier to answer that way.

Concering Mech acceleration, I think we're lacking real world experience here. Can Mechs accelerate rather fast, like humans can, or are they more like clumsy vehicles, which take their time to reach top speed. I personally think, Mechs are more advanced than vehicles in this area, since they are more human-like. That's my personal opinion, so I would suggest leaving this as it is and concentrate on discussions worth to be talked out.

Quote from: Iron Brain on April 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

BTW, no, a mech is not going to skid across the ground.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

lore king here.... time for a little BT intervention.

light-medium mechs ,40 tons and under, accelerate at very fast speeds, most of these are humanoid or reverse knee walkers. Heavy-Assult mechs are slow and cumbersom however, they are slow to accelerate and slow to decelerate. Even a lithium-fusion reactor (of the age) cant put out enough power to move that amount of mass to its top speed quickly, its simple to much inertia to over come.

OH and HELL YES MECHS WILL SKID. Just like a human would moving on a slick surface a quick change in directional facing will cause "drift" or "skid". This was always a pain in the ass in CBT as i would constantly be moving to fast and skid into buildings.

Source: BattleTech - Complete Classic Universe


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siodseraph

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Re: Movement

« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 12:31:58 AM »

Quote from: Chaoswolf on April 24, 2008, 02:08:16 PM

OH and HELL YES MECHS WILL SKID. Just like a human would moving on a slick surface a quick change in directional facing will cause "drift" or "skid". This was always a pain in the ass in CBT as i would constantly be moving to fast and skid into buildings.

LOL - That must have been very annoying. But collateral damage ... who cares about that!


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Wolfsbane

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Re: Movement

« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 07:55:32 AM »

These are some great posts....

but even in the awesome BT future....

NEWTON"S LAWS STILL APPLY

therefore the SAME laws apply to acceleration and Deceleration....

here is some more food for thought....

A "reactor" , in BT i believe they are FUSION reactors, meaning the joining of atoms (instead of contemporary ones, which split atoms)....

in either case, the amount of the reaction process (heat) cannot be instantaneously changed....

so the boat throttle and the gradual acceleration (faster for lighter mechs) makes perfect sense to me....specifically more important is the question of the actual drive train in a two legged mech...

Myomer bundles have been mentioned as the "muscles" of mechs...are these elastic in any way shape or form? If so, can they be instantly turned RIGID?

To either Accelerate or Decelerate quickly, our muscles (in our bodies) are capable of doing this...if these myomer bundles do the same, then some sort of fluid must enter them (a non-compressible liquid) to make them rigid...

You are going to have fluid flowing inside these myomer budles, which will cause a "delay" in accel or decel. You can't get around it... using a fluid.

Now, if the myomer budles could be stimulated by an electric charge (like our muscles) to either be stiff or rigid... then even quicker accel and decel is possible...

But we don't have a real neurohelmet to let our keyboard controlled mech know we want to walk straight...

and using WASD is NOT a good option.

☺


« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:04:36 AM by Jetfire »	Logged

zaha

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Re: Movement

« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2008, 08:10:37 AM »

Indeed, they are electrically stimulated muscles:

Quote

LOCOMOTION/MOVEMENT SYSTEMS

Two different systems are used to drive BattleMechs and control their movements. Small, electrically driven actuators move a 'Mech's light weapons and sensor arrays. Bundles of polyacetylene fibers called myomers control a 'Mech's limbs and main weapons. Myomers contract when exposed to electrical current, much like human muscles. If a BattleMech's myomers are damaged in battle, technicians can replace the fiber bundles with new ones or "transplant" myomers from other parts of the 'Mech's skeleton. Transplanted myomer bundles cannot restore full function to a damaged limb, but they do provide limited mobility and strength.

Taken from: classicbattletech.com

Quote

and using WASD is NOT a good option.

How would you suggest controlling a battlemech with keyboard and mouse, then?


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PanzerBoxb

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Re: Movement

« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2008, 08:12:47 AM »

I believe WASD is a perfectly viable option. Tapping W/S would give you small, sustained increases in trottle. Holding either down would result in much larger increment.


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