In CBT physical combat started as more effective and then as Clan and Star League equipment got thrown into the mix it became less effective.

In CBT most light mechs sported weapons that had an effective range of 9 hexes (approximately 270m).  55 ton medium mechs like the Griffin or Wolverine could almost match the speed of some of these light mechs and, when properly used, could get into close combat with them.  If a 55 ton mech kicked a light mech, it was very likely that the light mech was going to have its leg kicked clean off.  11 points of damage to one leg or the other.  This spelled doom for the light mech.

Likewise, heavy and assault mechs enjoyed having enough armor on their fronts and some long range guns such that light mechs needed to try and get behind them in hopes of penetrating their weaker rear armor and out of the arc of fire for their big weapons.  This would usually end poorly as the lighter mech circled closer and closer trying to get good To Hit numbers until one turn they would lose initiative and find themselves in melee with a mech that doubled their weight.  Then, *pop*, off would come their leg.  Or *crunch* they'd get punched and their arm would come off or their torso or head would cave in.

Assault mechs were, by and large, equipped with brutal short range weapons and only a single long range one (the exception is the Awesome which filled the role of long range assault mech).  They relied on their armor and lance mates to see them into close combat where they could kick the legs off enemy mechs, kick the turret off of tanks, or simply open up with an AC/20, SRM-6 and 2 medium lasers.  I think it is important to note that the combination of SRM pack and 2 medium lasers is standard armament for many of the 3025 mechs of 70 tons or more, while that combined with a heavy autocannon is prevalent in assault mechs.

Basically, the weapon load out for what we consider a monster now-a-days, the Atlas, was laughable in 3025.  It had an LRM-20, AC/20, SRM-6, 1 medium laser on each arm, and 2 rear facing medium lasers.  It was at home at 270 meters or less, Optimally about 90 meters.  So close combat is bound to happen and honestly, giving up 2 medium lasers (5 damage) to instead punch twice with a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the head (for 10 damage) is an awesome pay off.  Likewise, if you happen to have stripped the armor off of someone's leg, an Atlas' kick will bust the leg off sending them toppling over and basically, dead meat.  Will he try desperately to close range with the enemy?  You betcha.  Once he runs out of LRM salvos he has no choice but to move forward into range of his AC/20, SRM-6 and medium lasers.  The closer he gets, the better he does, especially if he gets into close combat.

With the adoption of Star League technology we see the 3050 Atlas with a more familiar load out.  2 ER Large Laser, LRM-20, Gauss Rifle, SRM-6, 2 rear firing medium lasers.  This mech is comfortable at about 300 meters, outside of the range of most of the 3025 Atlas' guns.  Close combat is rarely even on the mind of this pilot, but, if he does end up close to an enemy mech, that 20 point kick sure is nice.  Will he abandon a good firing position to try and close range?  Hell no, he has the advantage of long range guns and thick armor.  But if someone closes with him, he can make them regret it.

So the question is, why such a drastic change to the CBT game?  The answer is that shooting lasers and missiles is more fun than Mech-Fu.  Not to say mech-fu isn't effective, oh, I've won and lost more games because of legs being kicked off in 3025 CBT, it's effective.  It's just not what the game should be.  So they changed the balance of power.  They added double heat sinks.

Now, suddenly, and for free, a mech could dissipate more heat than a 3025 Warhammer.  The Atlas, already boasting 10 tons of extra heat sinks, suddenly dropped half of them and upgraded its medium lasers to large lasers.  The short range AC/20 was upgraded to the slightly heavier, but vastly more versatile Gauss Rifle which hit for almost as much damage, but at 2.5 times the range.  Suddenly the 100 ton Atlas could look at the 80 ton Awesome and the Awesome would know fear.

So, long story short, I agree with the Devs that physical combat should not be the focus of any mech, it should be a desperation, or opportunist method of attack (like DFA).  But most importantly, it should happen when the innevitable collision between mechs occurs and the clan mechwarrior says, "Crap, why don't I have fists?" and the IS mechwarrior says, "It's clobbering time!"

Physical weapons certainly didn't really become effective until triple strength myomer came out and even then there are things to be said for punching or kicking instead.

I'd say the opisite actually, it looks like mainly short range is the exception. The Awesome, Goliath, Thug, Stalker, Shogun, Banshee, Zues, Murauder II, and Imp all mount at least a balance of long range weapons.

Yeah, a Banshee 3S will regularly stomp an Atlas into the ground and still be ready for more. 

The 3025 Atlas has a very narrow mission profile.  It's great in city fighting or if it's at the center of an assault on fixed defenses where it can get into range and stay there with out it's targets being able to keep the range open.  In pretty much any other situation there are plenty of other better choices in 3025.

The mechs designed around TSM add a bit of flavor that I appreciate. Have you tried the Ti Tsang, the Ostol 8M, or the TSM Berserker. 40 points of damage from the hatchet or kick of the TSM Berserker are pretty fearsome.

I do agree that the devs shouldn't focus on it though. It's only a nice to have feature.

What you say about the mechs is mostly true though I do disagree with some of it I don't feel the need to go back and forth on it with you.  I won't say anything except just because a mech is a "flagship" design doesn't necessarily say anything about how common it is.

As for the mechs you listed, here is why I didn't include them, though everything you said about them is true.

Thug production by Earthworks continued throughout the succession wars.

The Stalker has good long range abilities, but it doesn't match the Awesome.  The twin LRMs aren't very effective and the large lasers lack the range of the good old PPC.  Combined with its slow speed it has trouble getting into that sweet spot of 420 meters.[/quote]It's still better at range than the Atlas.

The Banshee configs all have primarily long range weapons.

The alternate (as the mech was originally intended) Zues with a PPC in place of the autocannon does great at range.

The 3025 Marauder II's don't have any Star League Tech. Irrigardless of availability it is still quite legel to play in Succession War era tournaments.

The Marauder IIC is 15 tons lighter than the Marauder II and doesn't make much use of auto cannons. I don't see the resemblance.

I don't think you mean what you say you mean here (every mech that doesn't only have Dark Ages stats is Classic Battle Tech), but to answer what I think you mean it most certainly is legal for pre Clan games.

Quite true. It becomes available well before the Clan invasion. That's close enough for Catalyst.

Welcome to the Forum Hitman


That one here might interest you then : http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,36/topic,1919.0/

Physical combat in CBT is one of the few ways light mechs survive against higher tonnage opponents. I still play Mekwars every so often and it is really seen as an art-form.

For the purposes of this game however, here are my 2 c-cents:

All the other mechwarrior games survived without this, you have enough going on without having to worry about melee. That aside, if melee is available for mechs it would draw situations out a lot more than without. If someone has most or all of their weapons destroyed, they would likely eject or engage in some suicidal maneuver, making them respawn sooner. With melee they would think about it more, perhaps fall back if able and ambush the enemy later on at some kind of choke point or low visibility area, meaning fewer respawns.

So, what is the centric idea here? FPS/Arcade or Simulation/Tactical?

THinking of battle armor only, a melee function may not be the ideal option, but using it such as a grab tool, to allow them to grapple onto mechs and vehicles to shoot their little hearts out before being shaken off.

The two cartoons of the arena


As in the Mech Field-Repair Bay. Dos it cost to repair or replace missing items in your load-out, or is the items replaced for free, as in no c-bills deducted from your purse! If not someone is smiling, just a little… as did all the ramming-freaks out there! I said ramming? Oups just remembered the video from … clearly showing a jumping party of Elelmentals, hate it, not the video thou, I don’t like Elementals when running an Atlas! Alas free the earth of Jumping Eels!

A note on Physical Combat, I have stated elsewhere that it is a very last resort to use your limbs as a weapon or as it is in the CBT universe the Mech is mounted with a stump-weapon, i.e. hatched, club etc. These items wasn´t just for the looks but as I see them used, a means of fighting on when either conditions were obtained, 1. the Mech runs out of ammo or no functional weapons, or 2. the Mech is within an arms/legs reach of the opponent. And thus as I said, a weapon of last resort, no MW in their dullest moments will attempt to close in just to give the opponent a kick-in-the-butt, if he/she still packs some useable weapons!
When using either your limb(s) or attached hatched or club weapon it should logically follow the standard rules, but
 ex. Punching with Left Arm gives 1 damage per 10 tons the Mech weights, but what happens when and if your Mech is damaged, is the damage given by the limb reduced that the Mech has a degreased Weight (This is not a CBT query that the limb damage value is automatically degraded when it has been dealt damage)
Thou all this may also be seen as thus. The limb (Arm(s) or Leg(s) deals their own weight in damage (in full) and not as the CBT rulings by 1/10th of the entire Mechs weight, and when the limb is dealt damage, its weight is decreased, and so dos the damage the limb is able to give also
 Just a final sprinkle here, that I know it is possible to use the Mech itself as a weapon could it be measured like this:
limbs weight + 1/10th of the entire weight + current speed of Mech unit + current speed of limb (myomor compression) = damage dealt.

Actually I would think the physical combat options would be a huge addition, huge in the sense that as trying to somewhat replicate the board game, every "sim" has failed to ever consider it. So to date it's been one of those things, in the board games but oddly absent from the computer. While I agree punching, kicking, and clubbing are certainly not attacks you would bank on...axes and swords were a little different. Sure you still have to get close but the above mentioned Axeman did 13 damage by CBT rules, which was enough to entirely destroy any mechs head section. Provided you rolled a 6 on one die. I would still rely more on my LRMs and medium lasers in that mechs case but I would ceratinly try to get into a  position where laying down the hatch could happen. If my Axeman is almost dead and your super Atlas is still shiny new and it does hit the head I still win. Its a gamble though.

Still...I'd love to see the Axeman cometh to a mech game, I miss them guys.