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Topic: Inner Sphere Rank Structure (Read 1489 times)
(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #15 on:
June 20, 2008, 09:38:16 PM »
True, but you have to figure on whomever set those mines out. If someone isn't likely to accept facts for what they are -and I am NOT speaking of ANYONE in particular, so please no one take any insult from this- then what blows up in my face when I share those facts really isn't that dangerous.
Now, all of that being said, not everything in a game universe has to be 100% factual, nor does the alternate reality need to correlate even a small amount to true reality, although we have alternate realities not only because true reality sucks, but because we would like to take certain bases of fact and translate them into our own matrix. So, that doesn't make true reality ANY less relevant to the alternate, it just makes it less likely the alternate will use truth.
Have I thoroughly confused you, yet?
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Chaoswolf
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 186
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #16 on:
June 20, 2008, 10:48:03 PM »
no confusion... im just the one waiting for you to stomp on one of my bouncing betty mines
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ITS 'Mech not Mech... you see that damned thing in front?! USE IT.... 'Mech is shortened from BATTLEMECH.... i hate u all... HA!
Seiko
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 197
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #17 on:
June 22, 2008, 09:16:59 PM »
The idea behind the thread is to generalize the IS ranks for the game. They will be based on prestige like Crysis ranks. While we could make them anything, I thought it would be good to get some info from you guru's so that the end result is as good as it could possibly be. I know that having the ranks be selectable by house would be the ultimate, we do have to make some generalizations. So, the best possible generalized case is the one that I would like to use and that is something that I hope to gain out of all this.
Good discussion so far!!
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overwatch
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 163
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #18 on:
June 22, 2008, 11:37:50 PM »
Well, using what we have already seen here, what would the perfect 9 be? Is MechWarrior even a valid rank, as people will be piloting Aeros, tanks and elementals too? Do we start with cadet/recruit or do we start at the private level? I'd say as a goal, we should make the ninth rank General. And for the sake of overall compatibility with a generic unnamed IS faction, lets stay away from anything house specific.
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“Let the word and the
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The Living Legends
PanzerBoxb
Captain Cheese™
Star Colonel
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Posts: 835
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #19 on:
June 23, 2008, 09:18:07 AM »
Quote from: The Wolf on June 20, 2008, 07:00:46 PM
Forgive me, PB, I'm not really trying to be nitpicky, because I know that gets old after while, but I'm just trying to insert facts.
I only post to stimulate discussion and I know the Fountains of Knowledge™, such as yourself, will always clarify. My view comes mostly from reading the novels. It always seemed that MechWarriors were above the common grunt in most hierarchies. Thus, it seemed to me that is relates very well to how Warrant Officers are done in the modern U.S. military.
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(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #20 on:
June 23, 2008, 10:27:49 AM »
Quote from: PanzerBoxb on June 23, 2008, 09:18:07 AM
My view comes mostly from reading the novels. It always seemed that MechWarriors were above the common grunt in most hierarchies. Thus, it seemed to me that is relates very well to how Warrant Officers are done in the modern U.S. military.
Well, you're absolutely right about MechWarriors being above normal Joe's, and that's precisely what Jordan Weisman and L. Ross Babcock, III, according to Shrapnel, wanted to do. The fighter pilots of WW I and II were, for all intents and purposes, the cut above, the human-gods of their time, because they took a barely functional machine into the sky and learned how to use that machine with elan and as a very sharp sword against their enemies. I don't know what kill ratios were back then, but I know for a fact they were higher than we have right now, and that's because fighter pilots in those days were true masters of their art, primarily because their art was not all that complex. The fighter pilots of today are still looked upon very favorably, they are the romantic icon of young men, and some young women, the first world round, and being icons like that there's nothing wrong with.
Similarly, with BattleTech, you have these brand new war machines, humongous ground-based non-tank vehicles that require enormous skill to pilot, and because there are over 2,000 worlds the Terran Hegemony started up the causes of nobility again to help direct and govern the worlds they could not reach from their single seat on Terra. That combination turns MechWarriors into that cut above, the human-gods of their time... at least until the bloody Clans come around.
So, up until about 3048 in the BattleTech time-line, MechWarriors were IT, they were the absolute shiznit, untouchable, revered for their skill and their heritage, which may include nobility, like the knights of legend.
So, to round all of my rant out... MechWarrior is a title that means a cut above, a human-god, to be revered, at least until the Clans come around. Technically, it's never a rank, it's a job description with the heavy connotation. In Waco Rangers, one of the lower "ranks" is MechWarrior, but that's because they didn't have their own air wing, or any combined arms, to work with at the time. Some Merc and Periphery units use MechWarrior as a rank, but it's a job description and they simply don't have combined arms to make that rank say something different. If they did, obviously a tank jock or crew is not going to be referred to as a MechWarrior.
So, MechWarrior is a title, sometimes used as a rank by non-CA units.
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PanzerBoxb
Captain Cheese™
Star Colonel
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Posts: 835
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #21 on:
June 23, 2008, 10:52:07 AM »
Wolf, I think you misinterpreted me. I am not saying that MechWarrior is anything more than a glorified title. I am saying that even a basic qualified MechWarrior is more than a simple enlisted man. Hence my statement below.
Quote from: PanzerBoxb on June 20, 2008, 01:50:07 PM
My view is that you cannot apply the basic enlisted ranks to MechWarriors. Mech units are much like air wings in modern units where all the pilots are either warrant officers (U.S. Army helicopters) or full blown officers. The base enlisted class are the regular grunts and support personnel.
But, all of this is moot because Seiko is just looking for a generic rank structure to use in the game and there has been plenty of good data provided.
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(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #22 on:
June 23, 2008, 11:06:49 AM »
Oh, so we're on the same page, just saying it in different ways? Got it.
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Seiko
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 197
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #23 on:
June 24, 2008, 09:44:45 AM »
Quote from: The Wolf on June 23, 2008, 10:27:49 AM
I don't know what kill ratios were back then, but I know for a fact they were higher than we have right now, and that's because fighter pilots in those days were true masters of their art, primarily because their art was not all that complex. The fighter pilots of today are still looked upon very favorably, they are the romantic icon of young men, and some young women, the first world round, and being icons like that there's nothing wrong with.
That is not why. The reason is because there has not been a huge air war since Vietnam. Even Vietnam and Korea was small in regards to the air war when compared to WWII. On any given day in WWII there were hundreds of aircraft in the sky on multiple war fronts. So it was guaranteed that a fighter pilot would engage multiple aircraft on every sortie. In today's world, a very large percentage of pilots go through their entire career without engaging a single air target outside of training. The face of war has changed over time so a comparison like this cannot be made.
Ok, that is the end of my rant.
Based on Wolf's post, how does this sound...
Private
Corporal
Sergeant
Master Sergeant
Sergeant Major
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Colonel
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(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
Offline
Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #24 on:
June 24, 2008, 10:16:07 AM »
I'm not certain who all will respond, because there's only a few of us here, but it has MY vote, LOL
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PanzerBoxb
Captain Cheese™
Star Colonel
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Posts: 835
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #25 on:
June 24, 2008, 11:39:57 AM »
Works for me.
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KitLightning
Resident Necromancer
Star Colonel
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Posts: 808
πάντα ρει, και ουδέν μένει
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #26 on:
June 24, 2008, 12:06:13 PM »
Quote from: The Wolf on June 23, 2008, 10:27:49 AM
MechWarrior is a title that means a cut above, a human-god, to be revered ... Technically, it's never a rank, it's a job description with the heavy connotation.
... So, MechWarrior is a title, sometimes used as a rank by non-CA units.
Spot on, a Mechwarrior is a pilot, designated thus that he/she eventually operates a ´Mech unit. But they should stem from the higher ranks in the military service or social hierachy, that Mechs are expensive, and a long training and schooling to handle a Mech is needed, just as modern pilots undergo. And that isn´t cheap. Just as PanserBoxb states:
Quote from: PanzerBoxb on June 20, 2008, 01:50:07 PM
My view is that you cannot apply the basic enlisted ranks to MechWarriors. Mech units are much like air wings in modern units where all the pilots are either warrant officers (U.S. Army helicopters) or full blown officers. The base enlisted class are the regular grunts and support personnel.
[/quote]
And on the Seiko subject, replace the titel of private with cadet, that privates are food-for-feets (ala MW3), and add the titel Leutenant Colonel, below Colonel. oh and delete the Sergeant Mayor.
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(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
Offline
Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #27 on:
June 24, 2008, 02:05:38 PM »
Quote from: KitLightning on June 24, 2008, 12:06:13 PM
And on the Seiko subject, replace the titel of private with cadet, that privates are food-for-feets (ala MW3), and add the titel Leutenant Colonel, below Colonel. oh and delete the Sergeant Mayor.
No. Cadet is also a title, meaning someone in training, it is not a rank. Do NOT get rid of the Sergeant Major nor add Lieutenant Colonel, and here are the reasons. More enlisted ranks are needed than officer ranks, period; there should be MORE enlisted than officers. A Lieutenant Colonel is a filler rank for people who have passed the rank of Major and passed the requirements to become a Colonel, but enough slots are not open for Colonel, yet.
1 Regiment
~ 108 MechWarriors
1 Colonel (Regimental, 1st Battalion, 1st Company, Command Lance Commander)
2 Majors (2nd and 3rd Battalion, 1st Company, Command Lance Commanders)
6 Captains (2nd and 3rd Company Commanders, all Battalions)
18 Lieutenants (2nd and 3rd Lance Commanders, all Companies)
1 Command Sergeant Major (Regimental NCOIC)
2 Master Sergeants (Battalion NCOICs)
6 Sergeants (Company NCOICs)
18 Corporals/Specialists (Lance NCOs)
54 Privates (Grunts)
«
Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 02:09:26 PM by The Wolf
»
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Hellfire
MechWarrior
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Posts: 84
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #28 on:
June 30, 2008, 01:35:57 PM »
I like the ranks. Thank goodness you based them on SLDF ranks and not anything else or we would be ripping each others throats out.
You cut out some needles factional bickering with that one.
Quote from: (TLL)Redwolf on June 24, 2008, 02:05:38 PM
Quote
1 Regiment
~ 108 MechWarriors
1 Colonel (Regimental, 1st Battalion, 1st Company, Command Lance Commander)
2 Majors (2nd and 3rd Battalion, 1st Company, Command Lance Commanders)
6 Captains (2nd and 3rd Company Commanders, all Battalions)
18 Lieutenants (2nd and 3rd Lance Commanders, all Companies)
1 Command Sergeant Major (Regimental NCOIC)
2 Master Sergeants (Battalion NCOICs)
6 Sergeants (Company NCOICs)
18 Corporals/Specialists (Lance NCOs)
54 Privates (Grunts)
Pointless nick pick time.
Your probably not going to be seeing that many privates in the real world unless the regiment is full of recruits. Most of them should be promoted to at least Corporal just for time in grade. This, as you said, is born out by the novels and sorcebooks where usually only the stereotypical green recruit guy is a private. Just going from memory here, but don't you usually see sergeants as lance NCO's and occasionally lance commanders. Something like a Lt. Lance Commander, a Sergeant, and two Corporals.
Just a funny aside, but I don't think the standard mech regiment is actually standard anymore. The Fed Suns for example usually packs a command lance per company (or was it Battalion? or both?) and a command company for the regiment. It makes it a lot easier for the commanders to actually command. Think about the example of an RCT commander who is also the commander of the mech regiment. He would have to be doing 6 jobs at once, including mech piloting and RCT commander. The guy would probably keel over after an hour.
A lot of the other states at least include some sort of separate command element somewhere in the regiment.
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(TLL)Redwolf
Lance Sergeant
Offline
Posts: 225
Justin "Redwolf" Case
Re: Inner Sphere Rank Structure
«
Reply #29 on:
June 30, 2008, 03:28:59 PM »
Quote from: Hellfire
Just a funny aside, but I don't think the standard mech regiment is actually standard anymore. The Fed Suns for example usually packs a command lance per company (or was it Battalion? or both?) and a command company for the regiment. It makes it a lot easier for the commanders to actually command. Think about the example of an RCT commander who is also the commander of the mech regiment. He would have to be doing 6 jobs at once, including mech piloting and RCT commander. The guy would probably keel over after an hour.
A lot of the other states at least include some sort of separate command element somewhere in the regiment.
You're absolute right, here, Hellfire. A STANDARD Regiment is 108 'Mechs, but with Combined Arms from Davion, different types of army setups from various states, it could literally be any arrangement, and perhaps the rank structure should be adjusted accordingly.
As for not seeing Privates in the lore, you're right about that, also, but only because they don't have any real effect on the story. They're there, and they're necessary for rank structure balance, but they're normally just not important enough to mention. They're still MechWarriors, though, by title, and therein their importance lies.
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