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Topic: Weapons (Read 2132 times)
Tinman253
Bondsman
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Posts: 3
Weapons
«
on:
August 05, 2008, 11:43:40 AM »
So far the weapons on the mechs and vehicles look great. I was hoping that you guys would remeber that a lazer is an instant weapon. Not something that you can see shoot otu of the gun towards the target. This really is about the guns. I Dont really believe that the LBX is a "Shotgun" for mechs. Its more of a proximity fused shell. Heres an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq_y6kkDO7Y
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MWLLKeeper
Professional Amature
MWLL DEV
Lance Captain
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Posts: 414
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #1 on:
August 06, 2008, 04:23:30 PM »
Quote from: Tinman253 on August 05, 2008, 11:43:40 AM
I Dont really believe that the LBX is a "Shotgun" for mechs.
Well your...umm...wrong?
Quote
Autocannon
A direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts. Autocannons are grouped into four broad damage classes, Autocannon/2, Autocannon/5, Autocannon/10, and Autocannon/20. Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the shotgun-like LBX and quick-firing Ultra.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_20-X_AC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dictionary
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Flyingdebris
Lance Captain
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Posts: 264
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #2 on:
August 06, 2008, 06:24:07 PM »
there is however an ammo type kinda like what was pictured in the video for regular autocannons in some of the later tros. I think. But i doubt it'll be featured in this game.
(edit) no wait, i lied, here are the ac ammo types i just looked up
Standard 20 10,000
Armor-Piercing 80 40,000
Flechette 10 15,000
Incendiary 20 20,000
Precision 80 60,000
Though, truth be told, some sort of prox fuse autocannon ammo would be useful for the anti air tanks. Cause hitting air units is a pain in regular crysis, and those aircraft are slow. Though i guess lbxs could work too.
«
Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 06:31:56 PM by Flyingdebris
»
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Tinman253
Bondsman
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Posts: 3
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #3 on:
August 06, 2008, 07:42:58 PM »
Hmm... Well in Mech 4 the Lbx had a diminishing dmg return at range just like a shotgun and in Battle tech it does not. I guess that was my real intention. In any event the LBX is a great weapon for Anti-Air. Mostly the lower Caliber guns with more range. LBX-2, LBX-5. If you note, they have two different rounds for the LBx in Battle tech. One is like a standard round, the other fragments.
'Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the "shotgun-like" LBX and quick-firing Ultra.'
It is still open to debate as what the LBX is. And it may always be.
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Zeus6S
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 191
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #4 on:
August 06, 2008, 11:40:45 PM »
If you use the optional rules for Missile Hit Table being affected by range then the LBX tends to hit with more slugs at close range and less at long range. It sorta balances out the SuperHeadShot weapon that the LBX ACs became in CBT.
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Tinman253
Bondsman
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Posts: 3
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #5 on:
August 07, 2008, 06:53:32 AM »
Of course when I wrote this origonnaly I forgot about the old "cannister shot" used out of cannons from pretty much the invention of the weapon. Cannister shot is just that. Several pounds of lead or steel balls loaded into a Cannister and shot out of the cannon. They usually were around .50 cal in size. And it appears we still have this available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgn1nhUEgo8
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Flyingdebris
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Posts: 264
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #6 on:
August 07, 2008, 07:53:27 AM »
lbx is probably something more akin to a sabot round with multiple smaller penetrators rather than a straight up shotgun round. As a bunch of tungsten pellets really pushes credibility too much in terms of being able to actually damage armor, even though this is BT and almost everything damages armor.
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MWLLKeeper
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MWLL DEV
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Posts: 414
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #7 on:
August 07, 2008, 10:09:15 PM »
Quote from: Tinman253 on August 06, 2008, 07:42:58 PM
'Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the "shotgun-like" LBX and quick-firing Ultra.'
It is still open to debate as what the LBX is. And it may always be.
Battletech didn't have it because in reality shotgun fire in rather tight spread patterns. Shot guns do NOT spread out in a giant cone of fire, but rather have a relatively compact sphere of pellets. And the description of the shells sounds exactly like a shotgun shell (a specialty shell that splits apart after being fired). Though it's exact sematics may be different, this is the very essence of "shotgun" like. Also, battletech probably didn't have it, as it was ment as a critical causing weapon, and they didn't want to complicate the tabletop game with damage reduction over distance rules (relatively speaking, BT rules are rather clean, and hence are not burdened with "interpretation" and complication problems of other arguably more "realistic" systems).
Oh, and one last thing, while we don't have it now, we may at some time (or perhaps in future releases) create the different ammo-types for
the autocannons (we already use some of them depending on what they are mounted on, but they are defaulted in, and not capable of being changed).
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Masakari
I wont forgot to brung it next time :downs:
MWLL DEV
Star Colonel
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Posts: 916
Better safe than sorry.
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #8 on:
August 08, 2008, 03:57:24 PM »
Says its a shotgun in the mechcommander book, but it also says the atlas is 17m tall.
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:conspiracy:
Quote from: ATLAS2696 on May 14, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
How i play this is it just for making it or playing and making it
Fail
Flyingdebris
Lance Captain
Online
Posts: 264
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #9 on:
August 08, 2008, 04:47:45 PM »
they say it's cluster rounds behave like a shotgun blast, but the only thing they ever specify about the actual rounds are that they split into smaller submunitions giving the weapon spread.
There is no specific mention of shooting lots of pellets like an actual shotgun. But out of personal preference i'd vote against it in favor of my multiple APFSDS idea since pellets would not be good against armor.
Also, i think the lbxes sort of have that same sort of artistic flexibility that reguilar acs have, i.e. lbxes shown having different numbers of barrels, and vastly different widths and lengths among different illustrations able to represent possibly the same or any class of lbx. So there's a lot of flexibility there.
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Defender
I like Shiny Things.
MWLL DEV
Star Colonel
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Posts: 836
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #10 on:
August 13, 2008, 04:36:24 PM »
Much flexibility indeed.
Personally, I'm down for the Shotty idea.
Although, I think it's shotgun in function. I think it can be numerous types of weapons. Pellets themselves may not do much damage, but exploding pellets? That's just one example of a way to modify a pellet spread-based weapon into more than just a pellet launching cannon. All that stuff is just hypothetical, but I think maintaining the form and function it's been in prior games for the most part is the best idea.
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Zeus6S
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 191
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #11 on:
August 13, 2008, 07:44:30 PM »
Who can say whether the pellets would or wouldn't be effective against mech armor? After all, a single burst from a .50 caliber machine gun inflicts more damage than one of these pellets does against mech armor. 2 Damage from MGs, 1 per pellet for LBX Cluster.
Since the CBT LBX Cluster munition could, theoretically, hit both the head and the foot of an enemy mech with a single blast then I would simply have the cone be ~20 meters in diameter at maximum range and move backwards from there. What you'll end up getting is a relatively crappy, but accurate, long range gun that spreads damage all over and a fairly brutal crit-cannon at closer ranges.
If you use CBT range for the LB10X you are looking at a maximum range of 570 meters with a spread diameter of 20 meters. At 285 meters the blast would be 10 meters in diameter and at 143 meters it would be only 5 meters in diameter. At point blank range, or 30 meters, the spread would be all of 1 meter across, inflicting tremendous damage to one or maybe 2 locations.
To balance the weapon damage out I'd have it throw out 50% more pellets (So 15 instead of 10, or 30 instead of 20), to encourage people to use it over the standard ACs. On average it will inflict less damage until the enemy is in short range, then the accuracy of the shotgun vs. a standard AC is null and the damage starts to climb for the LBX.
Basically, the trade off between the LBX and the standard AC is that the LBX is more accurate, spreads damage, and increases in damage dealing as range decreases. The standard and Ultra ACs are less accurate as range increases but inflict concentrated damage to single locations.
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Wolf74
Bondsman
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Posts: 38
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #12 on:
August 14, 2008, 08:35:09 AM »
CBT POV:
In CBT, The LB-X family of AC has 2 type of ammo
1. Slug Ammo: where it works like a Normal AC cannon
2. Cluster Ammo: where it Brakes up in to Muti-smaller rounds to try to hit a weak point in the targets armor.
If a mech has both types of ammo loaded in his/her unit the Pilot can switch on the fly which ammo bin will feed the weapon. This was on the LB-X strong points
Each of the Above ammo Can do damage up to the LB-X number (AKA LB-5X can do up to 5 damage) the Slot round does 5 damage where the Cluster Can do anything from 1 to 5 damage spread all over the target in 1 point increment . The Best way to Model the Cluster round would be to have a Shotgun effect where the cone of the effect is about 12m in diameter at the end of the Long range point.
«
Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 08:37:25 AM by Wolf74
»
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Zeus6S
Lance Sergeant
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Posts: 191
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #13 on:
August 14, 2008, 03:42:47 PM »
I wasn't going to mention the standard and cluster rounds for the LBX because I figured it would require too many controls and interface stuff to have ammunition both be swappable and for the mech lab to allow you to load up both types. If that isn't an issue then the only downside to the LBX is that it needs to be larger than the equivalent AC.
If you look at the CBT 3050 TRO the LBX autocannons have equal or superior range to even the Ultra versions of ACs. Add to that fact that an IS LB-10X actually weighs 1 ton less than an AC/10 and produces less heat and it quickly becomes obvious that the only balance factor in the CBT design for these weapons was the number of criticals they took up.
I'm not sure how badly this could impact the engine, but having a bunch of individual submunitions being seperately tracked might not be the fastest/best way to model the LBX cluster munitions, but it sure would be the most appropriate.
How are the devs handling the LBX cluster rounds?
Can LBX ACs switch between solid and cluster munitions?
What's the current range on the LB10X and LB20X respectively?
How are ACs and Ultra ACs going to be different from LBXs, especially if the LBX does end up with solid ammo?
And, the questions most in my mind.
How are Pulse Lasers going to be presented?
Specifically are they going to be rapid-fire lasers that overheat the mech because they can be fired continuously, or is there some other method that the -2 to target number modifier is going to be represented in the game?
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Flyingdebris
Lance Captain
Online
Posts: 264
Re: Weapons
«
Reply #14 on:
August 15, 2008, 09:23:24 PM »
well, i don't believe the machine guns in BT are .50 cal at all to be honest. A .50 cal machinegun + mounting and ammo feed may be heavy, but its not half or a quarter ton heavy. Seem more like cut down autocannons. Besides, irl .50 cal bmg bounces off any armored vehicle better armored than a humvee.
As for pellets. Its just not effecient. Dull projectiles are not good for penetrating armor, not even exploding ones since the explosive would not be able to be directed. Submunitions on the other hand would be able to.
The abrams mbt has a round that is essentially a massive shotgun blast of hundreds of tungsten pellets. It does not use this on armored vehicles, it uses them on infantry and light vehicles. Becasue these pellets would be useless on armor other than for scuffing a few hundred marks on the paint.
Besides, a splitting submunition round feels a whole lot more sophisticated to me than a simple oversized shotgun round. Because if it were a simple shotgun round, any smooth bore autocannon should be able to fire it, lbx or otherwise so long as the barrel was the appropriate diamater. And i think inner sphere smarty pants scientists would not be needed to reverse engineer lbxes if all that was needed was some measuring tape.
«
Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:25:50 PM by Flyingdebris
»
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