Legging and the Partisan

[Snowball]

With the recent forum focus on both the Heavy Gauss and legging, it's become quite clear that more and more players are relying on Legging as their primary combat tactic.

As much as I wish this wasn't the case, I'm not exactly opposed to this, as a tactic is a tactic.  However, in several of my recent matches, I've noticed that a particular player utilizes both the AC5 and RAC2 Partisans to exclusively leg Mechs.  You wouldn't think this would be as effective as it sounds, but it's almost too effective.

As both variants have an actual range that far exceeds their stated ranges, are fairly accurate, and have none of the degrading trajectory of the larger autocannons, one can often sit passively in a Partisan on top of some ridge and snipe the legs off of Mechs at extremely long ranges.  It's often much easier to target and leg slower moving Heavy and Assault Mechs then faster Light Mechs, and as all of the damage is being dealt to the legs, there's very little indication of damage received other than the rapid color change.

I was under the impression that the smaller autocannons were supposed to deal less damage against heavier armor, but the speed at which the AC5's and RAC2's can chew through leg armor on Heavy Mechs is baffling.  In fact, I've had a brand new Novacat legged several times in about 3-5 seconds (probably an extremely inaccurate estimation), regardless of whether I was moving slowly or quickly.  I don't stand out in the open, and can use cover rather well, but it seems not to matter, as unless I spot the Partisan either before or as soon as it starts firing, I'm probably gonna get legged before I can kill it.

I just want to verify that smaller autocannons do indeed deal less damage against heavy armor, and that this is not some error, but rather that the AC5 and RAC2 partisan are apparently very effective at legging larger, slower Mechs.  I also wouldn't mind some sort of damage rebalance, as it makes little sense to me that 47,910 Cbill Partisan Prime can render a 100,000+ Cbill Heavy Mech combat ineffective in 3-5 seconds (again, probably inaccurate), as it's supposed to be specialized as an Anti-Air unit.

[Freakazoid]

I mentioned in another thread about the potential for the partisan prime being overpowered. I'm glad someone else recognises how unusually easy it is to take out a heavy mech's leg with it. I've also chewed through light and medium mechs if they stand still for me, which they seem to do a lot of the time at 900m+.

[Aposiopesis]

This lack of dropoff (both in damage and trajectory) also contributes to party vans parked on a ridge being able to accurately and repeatedly down any aircraft in bursts sometimes as short as a second or two from 2+ klicks out. Easiest way to make money if there's aircraft around in Sandblasted or Clearcut is to find a good parking spot for a party van and go duck hunting. In some parking spots, you can pop aircraft on their runway or right after takeoff from most of the way across the map.

I actually like the ac5/2 damage against aircraft close in (it could maybe use a slight nerf, but not much) as it prevents aircraft from getting too cocky. However, there needs to be a severe dropoff after max range (so they're throwing annoying pebbles instead of huge fracking boulders).

Both their air problems and the legging problems are easily traced to small autocannons being way too powerful beyond max range.

[~SJ~ Blhurr]

Well I know this is about autocannons but two alpha strikes from 6lbls and any mech is lying on it's back it seems.  I sort of got carried away with this one day until I just flat out felt guilty for it.  I've been reformed!  Well I still rage-leg people once in a while .  I was going to make a post about this yesterday but this will do.  Accuracy with LBLs is not an issue.

[Aposiopesis]

The difference being that LBLs actually have a range limit at which they can do so (800m, surpassed by PPC, gauss, LRM...), whereas ac5/2s can strip legs from across the map.

[Ghiest]

Unfortunately it's only going to get worse with the mech factory

[SquareSphere]

The devs will probably do something about it.  Maybe classify all leg armor as heavy so these specific weapons can't chew through them so easily or something like that.

[DFDelta]

Maybe making it that AC2/5, RACs and MGs will only bounce off heavy armor when over their max range (but still damage light armor) and giving them a slight damage penalty against heavy armor starting slightly under the max range (maybe at "maxrange -200")

[SquareSphere]

That probably wouldn't help much.  Most of the legging is done when the tanks runs up very quickly to it's best range so the bullet spread is reduced.

[Snowball]

sorry Freakazoid, I'm normally pretty good about thread checking before I post, but there's sooooo many threads with the words "partisan", "AC5", and "legging".

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I agree with the idea that maybe a severe lowering of damage dealt past an "ideal" range might help.  I'm worried that it might render it too ineffective against Air, but as it stands right now, it's too effective against air.

Also, more leg armor/reclassifying leg armor might be useful, but again, the repercussions for this are fairly widespread.  Perhaps just reducing the damage the AC2, AC5, and RAC2 deal to legs rather then make the legs themselves tougher?

It makes alot of sense to me that a Heavy Gauss round or two Alphas with 6 CERLBLs would take out a leg, but 3-5 seconds of fire from 4 of the smallest autocannons in the game?  Against a Heavy Mech?

I sort of got carried away with this one day until I just flat out felt guilty for it.  I've been reformed!

I feel the same way.  First time I got in a  Novacat, I was like "I wonder what happens if I shoot at legs".  Like a minute or two later, I hated myself.  So now I just take off heads and arms and leave the legs alone.  Vulture A's look pretty funny running around on fire with no arms.

[Redvan]

yeah, i mentioned how my scat prime got legged in like 2 seconds by a partisan in The Formerly Dreaded Aero thread.  Not sure people believed me.

I just got out of my hanger, no one around but me and an enemy partisan, go engage the partisan 1v1 (should have no problems right), bam, legged.

I have nothing against the legging tactic at all.  I just dont like that it's so easy.  It just slows the game down and reduces any level of skill required to play the game.

For example:  Anyone can get a 1 shot on a leg with an HGauss.  Its not hard.  I want to see people actually having to be consistent with their shooting in order to be rewarded with legging someone.  1 shot does not show consistency.

Same goes for a partisan that'll leg in a couple seconds.  Might as well just make it one shot.  Plus, given the fact that all they have to do is sit there and swivel their turret 360 to follow you and have a huge vertical limit, they already have a huge advantage against a mech that has a limited horizontal view range.  No need to give them an ability to leg in 2 seconds.

[Killer-Bee]

if someone is able to hit a leg on a fast mech he has earned the chance to stop a mechs advance.
legging doesnt kill instantly even if it cripples or throws over.

also you can counter it by various tactics.
heavy mechs shield their legs by cover (if none available use hills. legs show up last),...
light mechs need to stop moving directly at their target (flank,circle),...
all mechs can better their grasp on the battlefield surroundings. seeing tanks, vultures,hollanders camping passive on the side. either you get what they are doing and counter it or you play right into their hands rewarding their effort.

if a lbx20 demolisher comes right for you driving into your mech you either grasp what he does and counter it by tactical maneuvering if you dont have the possibility to stop him any other way or you suffer the consequences. he earned legging you too. moving parts are still harder to hit than static ones. if your moving that is

dont get me wrong i got legged a lot too and i wasnt happy about it. and i dont leg others often because i dont consider it the most effective tactic. it just gets them to jump out if they cant still hit me turned over (in which case i often couldnt hit them myself effectively anymore. somehow the hitbox seems to mess up a lot of times when someone gets legged) or crippled.
but still i respect the effort someone puts into that tactic and think the current system "rewards" them properly.
in the case of the partisan for instance you have to take into account that he has good dps in most cases but you can easily counter his legging by shooting while running from cover to cover and not giving him the opportunity to constantly shoot at you with his fast firing but low dmg weapons. this has of course nothing to do with effectiveness against air assets.
for lbx variants, range is the key. lbx has high spread

[~SJ~ Blhurr]

Weapon class aside, whether or not legging is too powerful will quickly become evident by how many pilots opt to max out lef armor in the mechlab should that be possible.

[MerfMerf]

if someone is able to hit a leg on a fast mech he has earned the chance to stop a mechs advance.

I can agree with this. But not the rest.
Hitting the legs is not hard. Period. Even a fast mech circling is not a big problem. If you face gauss or other slower cycling weapons you can time their firing with MASC on/off and throw their aim. This is helps, but one hit and you are down on your back... so its effectiveness is limited. With the weapons discussed here those changes in speed only throw off the stream of bullets for a short time. Hardly affects your survivability. Anything with a 360 degree torso/turret twist have little problem with fast circling mechs. I have not found one that twists slow enough not to be able to keep the circler in sight most of the time. Sometimes one have to "assist" the twist by also turning the legs, but that is about it.

We move on to cover. If I find cover suitable enough to cover my leg, risk is I won't be able to attack the partisan. The partisan is low. I have to find very specific cover in order to engage it. Standing behind cover also make me stationary. A prime target for LTs among other things. So I better have found some cover that is in range for other cover so I can rush between them.

To conclude. I agree that leg-shots should slow a mechs advance. It should not stop it completely AND make the mech useless. With the weapons discussed here leaving the mech also often results in death. Shooting an ejecting BA seems to not be very hard with those fast firing weapons. Leg damage now is mostly all or nothing. Very seldom do I limp home with reduced speed to repair due to leg armour. BT damage does this however. It very effectively slows the mech. Preventing fast escape as well as preventing me from properly pursuing any one else. With BT damage one is encouraged by the game to return to base for repairs. Leg damage never have you do this call. You either have a leg or you don't. Only time damage on legs is in the moderate section is when hits to the legs are unintentional (And this never have any effect... since loss of speed is drastic and only happens very near the end of your leg armour).

/Merf - Offering its humble observations and thoughts

[Mekabuser TK]

the fact of the matter is the game would suck.. IF>.
everybody legged. all the time.

there is no longer the BS mw4 excuse of.. "oh. light armour on the legs.. u deserve it"
these are stock, so when your legged. relatively quickly, its not bec ur not armoured, its because someone shot at ur legs.
so then someone else shoots at his legs. and if everyone did it.. Yippee.. we got a bunch of gimp mechs lying on their asses.
sounds fun dont it?
thank god a majority of players realize that legging, yes , in fact , is just lame.
just imagine, everyone legging, all th e time..
hell of alot different than everyone going ct or for arms even.